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Carbs? Don't cut em....3699

The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
So...sorry it took a couple of days to get this together...work and school had me busy. This is sort of a spin-off of the "is a calorie just a calorie" notion, and my belief that cutting carbs and going unnecessarily high on protein offers no advantages when cutting. First some points on long-term effects of low carb:

From “Diet-Induced Weight Loss Is Associated with Decreases in Plasma Serum Amyloid A and C-Reactive Protein Independent of Dietary Macronutrient Composition in Obese Subjects” in the April 2005 Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism: "Thus, in otherwise healthy, obese women, weight loss was associated with significant decreases in both SAA and CRP. These effects were proportional to the amount of weight lost but independent of dietary macronutrient composition."

http://redirect.hp.com/svs/rdr?TYPE=4&tp=iefavs&s=downloads&pf=cnnb&locale=en_us&bd=all&c=104

“Comparison of a Low-Fat Diet to a Low-Carbohydrate Diet on Weight Loss, Body Composition, and Risk Factors for Diabetes and Cardiovascular Disease in Free-Living, Overweight Men and Women” in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism June 1, 2004: “These data suggest that energy restriction achieved by a very low carb diet is equally effective as a low fat diet strategy for weight loss and decreasing body fat in overweight and obese adults.”

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/6/2717.abstract


From the Journal of the American Mecical Association Meta anaylsis:
“A review of studies on low-carbohydrate diets published in the May 2004 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found no advantage to these diets compared to equal calorie diets that include carbohydrates. Conducted by researchers at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, this review concluded that calories, not the composition of the diet, was responsible for weight loss and there are no differences in satiety (the feeling of fullness) between the two dietary approaches.

A classic study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation found that any short-term differences in weight loss between those on either a low-carbohydrate or a balanced diet of equal calories is entirely due to water loss, which cannot be sustained over time. This study demonstrated that fat loss is entirely driven by a reduction in calories and was the first to describe “weight snap back”— the rapid regain that occurs on low-carb diets when carbohydrates are reintroduced.
An analysis of the diets of 2,681 people who are listed in the National Weight Control Registry found that fewer than 1 percent who had maintained at least a 30-pound weight loss for a year or more followed a diet with less than 24 percent of the daily calories from carbohydrates.

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/atkins/117/partnership_for_essential_nutrition.htm

So...apparently no better going lower carb than lower calories....now on to protein consumption:

From "Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders"

"These data indicate that, during the early stages of intensive bodybuilding training, PRO needs are approximately 100% greater than current recommendations but that PROIN increases from 1.35 to 2.62 g.kg-1.day-1 do not enhance muscle mass/strength gains, at least during the 1st mo of training." (That's about 1.19 grams per pound of bw)

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/2/767.short

From "What are the maximum protein requirements of strength athletes?" (Nice meta analysis here):

"Statistically non-significant trends deriving from muscle mass measurements, determined that the maximum protein requirements for strength athletes to be a moderate quantity of 1.4g/kg Bw/day. Similar results were shown in all three studies." (That's about .64 grams per pound of bw, if you're keeping score at home).

http://chesterrep.openrepository.com/cdr/bitstream/10034/115251/1/brandon%20foster.pdf

Finally, from "Macronutrient Considerations for the Sport of Bodybuilding":

"There is evidence that a relatively high protein intake (~30% of energy intake) will reduce lean mass loss relative to a lower protein intake (~15% of energy intake) during energy restriction. The higher protein intake will also provide a relatively large thermic effect that may aid in reducing body fat. In both the off-season and pre-contest phases, adequate dietary carbohydrate should be ingested (55–60% of total energy intake) so that training intensity can be maintained. Excess dietary saturated fat can exacerbate coronary artery disease; however, low-fat diets result in a reduction in circulating testosterone. Thus, we suggest dietary fats comprise 15–20% of the body builders’ off-season and pre-contest diets."

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/smd/2004/00000034/00000005/art00004

Finally, a little real world application. I present to you item 1: Chris Voigt. Voigt ate nothing but potatoes between Oct. 1 and Dec. 1. He had them for breakfast, lunch and dinner — about 20 potatoes per day prepared in a variety of ways. His weight dropped from 197 pounds to 176 pounds and his cholesterol level fell 67 points. Lots of carbs, all the time.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/40424707/ns/today-today_health/t/days-nothing-spuds-leaves-advocate-lbs-lighter/

And item 2: Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University. Haub lost "27 pounds in 10 weeks subsisting almost exclusively on Twinkies, Doritos, Oreos and other treats by ensuring that he consumed fewer calories than he burned."

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/06/health/la-he-fitness-twinkie-diet-20101206

So....there it is. My opinion. Cutting your carbs to something lower than 50% and upping your protein to over 30% is completely without need and for the most part, it will not garnish you any better results. I was taught the 30/50/20 rule by the ACSM, and have always gotten good results from it. Just some food for thought the next time someone advises you to consume only 100 grams of carbs and 300 grams of protein to either cut or bulk. -EK
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westmj1 private msg quote post Address this user
What do you think of the paleo diet?

Because i have been on it for like 6 months and have never felt better. I dunno if i will ever go back to eating grains. And to be honest, when i read Mark Sisson's arguments and arguments against the diet i think Mark Sisson has won every time so far. But maybe that is just because i haven't heard a good argument.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Not much. Not a fan. A 2011 ranking by US News & World Report, involving a panel of 22 experts, ranked the Paleo diet lowest of the 20 diets evaluated based on factors including health, weight-loss and ease of following. These results were repeated in the 2012 survey, where the diet placed 24th out of 24, stating that their experts “took issue with the diet on every measure.” -EK
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brian12 private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight

An awesome post! Well structured, and well worded.

Thank you for put this together.

This will be a 'send to post' for any carb/protein/macro-nutrient questions that pop up in the forums

Cheers^^
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
Fuck just going to bed when I see this!
Already repped as I can see the effort put in so thanks EK, will get to it in the morning.
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david12345676 private msg quote post Address this user
A+ stuff ek. very well put together. repped.
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NorIda private msg quote post Address this user
And this, this is why ek is the man. Facts supported by sources, no "lol u mad brah!" at the end of his argument.

Great read
Great information

Thanks.

Interested to see where this thread leads
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Thor private msg quote post Address this user
My current macros are 50/30/20 or 60/30/10 depending on how I'm tracking. People don't tend to go 'high' carb these days, with 40/40/20s being very popular or straight ketos.

But they're missing out. Carbs are easy to source, easy to prepare and allow for more flexibility in your diet. Furthermore, >1g of protein per pound of bodyweight is a waste imo. I was pretty shocked to see how much protein some of you guys eat in that other thread.
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THE GODFATHER wannabemuscular private msg quote post Address this user
I had been running at roughly 40p/30c/30f for a long time. I've dropped a lot of weight but recently my workouts and daily energy levels started to plummet. One week ago I switched to roughly 30p/55c/15f. All my workouts this week improved and I haven't hit the wall at 3 in the afternoon like I had been. I have an overall feeling like my system is CRANKED UP!
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight
So how lean do you think you can get with carbs taking over 40% of your calories? Obviously there is a point for competition where you will need to drop carbs significantly but can you get as lean as Greg Plitt - for example - without having to drop carbs that much?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
You can't get that lean without the use of drugs, so it's not even close to the same comparison. I was under 5% on stage eating a cup of either rice or oats five times a day, plus milk fruit and veggies- which came up to about 210 grams. I'd only severely drop carbs about a week out to manipulate water. Maintenance calories for me at that time were about 2355. Cutting out me at 1855. So that means with proper training, I got under 5% keeping carbs at a little over 45%. -EK
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dwatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor

But they're missing out. Carbs are easy to source, easy to prepare and allow for more flexibility in your diet. Furthermore, >1g of protein per pound of bodyweight is a waste imo. I was pretty shocked to see how much protein some of you guys eat in that other thread.



Now its not a complete waste, consuming more then 1 has a thermogenic affect on your body keep in mind.
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
@dwatson
If you have the time you could look over these 2 videos, I know they are long but they are excellent:


They address literally everything to do with protein in strength athletes, bodybuilders going into a competition, the myths associated with protein etc.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks for the feedback guys. I was trying to find the full text of one more study, simply because it used SO mnay people (811 participants), was 2 full years long, and divided its participants into 4 distinct groups in terms of macros. I couldn't find a full text, only an abstract, but basically it lays out as follows:
"Comparison of Weight-Loss Diets with Different Compositions of Fat, Protein, and Carbohydrates" Frank M. Sacks, M.D., et al. N Engl J Med 2009; 360:859-873February 26, 2009

Set-up:
Group one: 15f/65c/20f
Group two: 25p/55c/20f
Group three: 15p/45c/40f
Group four: 25p/35c/40f

Out of the 811 people, 645 completed the entire two years, and the results showed, "Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize." -EK

Edit- found the full text:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748
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c3pOMG private msg quote post Address this user
EK
so is there a specific macro split that is best for losing BF% with minimal muscle loss?
or is that also just about cals in vs cals burned?

ive been stuck at a little over 9% for a few weeks now and i want to get to under 8% and get my metabolsim fired up before i try to start adding weight again on a clean slow bulk. i use a 35F/25C/40P right now
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
I stand by the results and published literature of 30-35p/45-50c/20f. -EK
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Jelet private msg quote post Address this user
ek how much carbs would you recommend when cutting at 2500-2600 calories?(with cardio)


what would the macros be in ur recommendation.

i need to start cutting next month.. im starting to get a little belly that u can see through my clothes.. and i wear tight fitted clothes so i dont like it...
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
@Jelet
He just said it man, 45-50% of total calories so at 2500 cals consume 280-310g carbs.
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight
Do you deduct daily fibre from your carb total i.e. 280g total carbs with 40g fibre = 240g carbs?
Would you count 280g or 240g as the number of carbs contributing to your 50% carb ratio?
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Jelet private msg quote post Address this user
@ MrMailliw I dont agree with going by % as an ecto with higher calories more than usual users. And 280-310G carbs doesnt seem right when cutting.

lets see what EK has to say.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
@MrMailliw - yes deduct the fiber.
@Jelet - not sure what you want me to say. I've gotten lean as fuck going no less that ~45% carbs. What are you suggesting, subbing out 50 grams of carbs for 50 grams of protein? It's 200 kcals either way- makes a whopping difference of about 40 total calories Ben I you take into account the thermogenic effect of the macros. -EK
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Jelet private msg quote post Address this user
@EK nothing im just surprised :P, looks like cutting is going to be very easy with your way of cutting compared to my previous cut that i have done where i had to eat low carbs and therefore alot of cardboard tasting foods... Had no motivation that i ended my cut shot after 6 weeks because i just couldnt do it lol. even though i saw results. Just was annoying eating mostly chicken and eggs all day. and couldnt eat that much rice or additives to my food because of the carbs...



910 calories protein = 227 G Protein

1170 calories carbs = 292 G carbs

520 calories fat = 59 G fat

2600 calories.

if i done math correctly....
-------

my previous cutting diet.

105g Carbs
70G Fat
254.1g Protein
2090 Calories

lost a little bit of strenght, but only by a few reps.


--



I will let u know how it goes EK. Im interesting to trying it this way instead of the low carb approach.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
The only downside is that, unlike some "diets" I've used, you do have to keep up on the cardio. Good luck! -EK
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Jelet private msg quote post Address this user
how much cardio do you recommend with your cutting diet macros?
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Wbauman private msg quote post Address this user
Maybe a noob question but how do you figure the calories to grams
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
@Jelet 20-25 HIIT 3-5 times per week.

@Wbauman 4 kcals for 1 gram of protein or carbs. 9 kcals for fat. -EK
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Wbauman private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks EK.
Post 27 IP   flag post
Wbauman private msg quote post Address this user
How accurate are the bmr calculators. I have figured mine at 2300 and have been at 1900 but haven't lost any in the last three weeks. I'm 40 and currently weigh 164. In the gym 5 days a week and cardio twice a week. Oh an I'm 5'5"
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
They are usually estimated to be accurate +/- about 3%. Are you actually taking the time to measure out everything or are you eyeballing it? What kind of routine are you doing? -EK
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THE GODFATHER wannabemuscular private msg quote post Address this user
@Wbauman - I'm 38, glad to see another old guy on here.

The fact that you didn't know how to figure grams of macros to calories tells me your diet might not be as good as you think. Do you use any kind of tracking program to log everything you eat daily? What is your macro breakdown on average?

You're 164 now - where do you want/need to get to?
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