Stronger 24/7 - Stronger Everyday
Stronger 24/7 Forum
BenchBench PressChest

Bench press and "upper pecs"1881

haole private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Yes, you missed something there. The pectoralis major is ONE muscle with a common point of insertion, so you can't activate one head without the other. Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


I see, but I know its almost impossible to isolate one specific muscle or part of a muscle with any lift. But it clearly states that close grip incline bb press can be used to develop the upper chest/clivicular head (which is what this whole thread was about).
Post 201 IP   flag post
The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
LOL, no, that's NOT what the thread was about. I should know- I started the thread! Reread my first post in the thread, where I stated clearly, "significant changes in how that muscle contracts shouldn't be caused by changing the angle of a pressing movement." If the angle increases the activation of the clavicular head, it also increases activation of the sternal head. That's NOT what Swayz was saying. He was arguing that doing inclines causes a greater contraction/isolation/however you want to word it of the clavicular head than of the sternal head. If that's not what he was saying, why did he keep going on about it and how it "feels?" FWIW, grip placement DOES show a difference in recruitment, but that's becuase of how far the fibers are being stretched, and has nothing to do with the angle. He even got that part wrong too, though, as the FURTHEST grip (190% of biacromial width (shoulder width as defined by the distance between acromion processes)resulted in the greatest isometric contractions, not the closer grips. -EK
Post 202 IP   flag post
Christf private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


You have got to be kidding me man...that's what everyone on here has been trying to say this whole time. This thread is now officially retarded
Post 203 IP   flag post
The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Chris- show me where someone other than me has said this. This thread is 8 pages of me saying inclines do not create further contraction of the upper portion of the chest, without further contracting the entire chest, and multiple people saying, "Nuh, uh. You can hit the upper portion more and develop it more by doing inclines," as if in some manner, you can build up a weak point in chest development (ie, the upper portion) by doing inclines. Then Swayz got into the whole, "So there for there is NO longer upper abs or lower..." How does that- in any way- not sound like someone saying "two different muscle that can be worked independently of eachother?" -EK
Post 204 IP   flag post
luka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christf
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


You have got to be kidding me man...that's what everyone on here has been trying to say this whole time. This thread is now officially retarded
Post 205 IP   flag post


NinjaB0B private msg quote post Address this user
I knew it was wrong to come here... after 8 pages.....
Post 206 IP   flag post
THE GODFATHER wannabemuscular private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Yes, you missed something there. The pectoralis major is ONE muscle with a common point of insertion, so you can't activate one head without the other. Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


Why is overall development "better" when doing both incines and declines if simply doing flat bench presses works the entire muscle? Doesn't that statement prove that inclines make a difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
That's not at all how it came across. He actually said- and I'm quoting now- "there is no upper chest...although the ENTIRE BB world and prob about 99.9999999999999% of the Fitness world would Disagree. FAF its like saying you dont have upper Abs because NO where on a anatomy chart does it say upper abs..." and "But to then go and say you cant do incline lifts to activate your upper chest, and that flat bench activates it just the same...is well also ruhtarded" and finally, "FACT I have built my upper chest by switching from flat bench to doing incline exercises" and "you cant explain why your upper chest burns more when you do inclines then flat bench now can you?!"

I actually DID explain why he thinks he feels more in his "upper chest" doing inclines- "Regardless of the science however, many people will remain firmly convinced that muscle isolation is a reality because they can "feel" different movements more in one region of a muscle than in others. This I do not dispute, nor does science. There is in fact differentiated neural feedback from motor units depending on the relative length of the component fibers, and this feedback tends to be (or is interpreted by the brain as) more intense when the fibers in question are either shortened (contracted) or lengthened (stretched) in the extreme. However this has to do with proprioception (the ability to sense the orientation and relative position of your body in space by interpreting neural feedback related to muscle fiber length and Joint position) and not tension, fatigue, or level of fiber recruitment." All of his statements- whether intentional or not- make it seem as if he's saying inclines specifically hit the clavicular head more than the sternal (which they do not), or that the only way a strong calvicular head can be developed is with inclines, which is also not the case. When you flat bench, you are hitting BOTH portions; when you incline, you are hitting BOTH portions more, not one more than the other. -EK


You stated earlier in this thread somewhere (I'm not going to go back and find it) that doing declines recruits more muscle fibers in the lower part of the pec. Right? So wouldn't that lead one to believe that by doing inclines you would involve less muscle fibers from the lower region? Thus, involving the upper region proportionally more?
Post 207 IP   flag post
THE GODFATHER wannabemuscular private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Chris- show me where someone other than me has said this. This thread is 8 pages of me saying inclines do not create further contraction of the upper portion of the chest, without further contracting the entire chest, and multiple people saying, "Nuh, uh. You can hit the upper portion more and develop it more by doing inclines," as if in some manner, you can build up a weak point in chest development (ie, the upper portion) by doing inclines. Then Swayz got into the whole, "So there for there is NO longer upper abs or lower..." How does that- in any way- not sound like someone saying "two different muscle that can be worked independently of eachother?" -EK


Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabemuscular
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
So based on the fact that I'm a three time national powerlifting champion, who has competed in a half dozen NPC shows (how many have you guys done?) and have trained an NFL lineman and the only Miss Teen USA to ever score a perfect score in the swimsuit round of the contest, but refuse to post a pic, that negates all of the facts I present? How's that work? Basing your opinion of someone's knowledge on only their physical appearance is asasnine. THAT'S why I asked about race and gender. If someone doesn't "appear" the way you think they should appear you discount their knowledge- race and gender are logical extensions of that attitude. -EK


Powerlifters and NFL Lineman aren't necessarily in great shape. They are often fat and have no aesthetics.
Swimsuit models don't usually have any muscle mass. So, that fact that you trained them doesn't really apply here.

This forum is about being ripped and aesthetic, not just strong in a particular lift. When I do inclines, I am able to put more emphasis on the upper region of the pec and less on the bottom. This allows me to work on asthetics and proportions. Nobody is denying that you can develop a good overall chest and strength by doing flat moves only.


I don't believe my statement above sounds like I think you can "isolate" the upper pec. I say you can shift more emphasis to it.


Same here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabemuscular
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankie
. . . . So Even though there is no isolated "Upper Pec" I believe that you can still stress the muscle fibers of the upper portion of the pec more then the rest causeing the upper portion of the pec to grow more then the rest would.


I believe the same Ankie.


I don't think the point is that we think you can isolate the upper pec region, but you can shift more emphasis to it or at least away from the lower region.
Post 208 IP   flag post
Swayz87 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco
dude, thats what swayz has been saying the whole time, not that you can completely isolate the clavicular head, but you can emphasize it more.






Quote:
Originally Posted by haole


I see, but I know its almost impossible to isolate one specific muscle or part of a muscle with any lift. But it clearly states that close grip incline bb press can be used to develop the upper chest/clivicular head (which is what this whole thread was about).


Yes LMAO...Yes it was Haole ; )...One when saying Upper/lower chest I'm talking about the differnt areas of the chest...not saying they are different muscles...Two never said doing Incline Close grips doesnt involve the lower fibers of the chest..(so no one get that twisted) yes the whole chest is used to lift At an incline..But apparently when doing Incline close grips the Upper Fibers of the chest are worked to a greater extent...What else would explain the whole statement about it being used to develop the "UPPER CHEST"


Post 209 IP   flag post
Swayz87 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
LOL, no, that's NOT what the thread was about. I should know- I started the thread! Reread my first post in the thread, where I stated clearly, "significant changes in how that muscle contracts shouldn't be caused by changing the angle of a pressing movement." If the angle increases the activation of the clavicular head, it also increases activation of the sternal head. That's NOT what Swayz was saying. He was arguing that doing inclines causes a greater contraction/isolation/however you want to word it of the clavicular head than of the sternal head. If that's not what he was saying, why did he keep going on about it and how it "feels?" FWIW, grip placement DOES show a difference in recruitment, but that's becuase of how far the fibers are being stretched, and has nothing to do with the angle. He even got that part wrong too, though, as the FURTHEST grip (190% of biacromial width (shoulder width as defined by the distance between acromion processes)resulted in the greatest isometric contractions, not the closer grips. -EK


"The close grip incline barbell bench press can be used for development of the upper clavicular head."

Uhhhh is anyone else like Wtf is going on here?!
Post 210 IP   flag post
Swayz87 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christf
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


You have got to be kidding me man...that's what everyone on here has been trying to say this whole time. This thread is now officially retarded


DUDE THATS WHY I TRIED TO GET THE FFUUUUCCKKKKKK OUTTA HERE!!!!!

Serious Ek......
Post 211 IP   flag post
THE GODFATHER wannabemuscular private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swayz87

DUDE THATS WHY I TRIED TO GET THE FFUUUUCCKKKKKK OUTTA HERE!!!!!


Yeah, man. I tried to get outta here too, but it keeps sucking me back in.
Post 212 IP   flag post
Swayz87 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Chris- show me where someone other than me has said this. This thread is 8 pages of me saying inclines do not create further contraction of the upper portion of the chest, without further contracting the entire chest, and multiple people saying, "Nuh, uh. You can hit the upper portion more and develop it more by doing inclines," as if in some manner, you can build up a weak point in chest development (ie, the upper portion) by doing inclines. Then Swayz got into the whole, "So there for there is NO longer upper abs or lower..." How does that- in any way- not sound like someone saying "two different muscle that can be worked independently of eachother?" -EK


I dunnp what manner I was talking about...wait! Maybe this one......

"The close grip incline barbell bench press can be used for development of the upper clavicular head."


Then again who knows that mutha fucka is a crazy sick kunt! With Bawls the size of the Rockies
Post 213 IP   flag post
Swayz87 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabemuscular
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swayz87

DUDE THATS WHY I TRIED TO GET THE FFUUUUCCKKKKKK OUTTA HERE!!!!!


Yeah, man. I tried to get outta here too, but it keeps sucking me back in.


Like a Fuggin dear in headlights!!!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Swayz87
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
LOL, no, that's NOT what the thread was about. I should know- I started the thread! Reread my first post in the thread, where I stated clearly, "significant changes in how that muscle contracts shouldn't be caused by changing the angle of a pressing movement." If the angle increases the activation of the clavicular head, it also increases activation of the sternal head. That's NOT what Swayz was saying. He was arguing that doing inclines causes a greater contraction/isolation/however you want to word it of the clavicular head than of the sternal head. If that's not what he was saying, why did he keep going on about it and how it "feels?" FWIW, grip placement DOES show a difference in recruitment, but that's becuase of how far the fibers are being stretched, and has nothing to do with the angle. He even got that part wrong too, though, as the FURTHEST grip (190% of biacromial width (shoulder width as defined by the distance between acromion processes)resulted in the greatest isometric contractions, not the closer grips. -EK



Oh and before swayz leaves this jankie thread forever....Yes Farthest grip does Isolate the chest more....and by saying that I mean the chest bares more of the weight then the delts and tris (more specifically the tri) when doing far grip bench...it also works the outter fibers that connect near the arm pit area more then the rest of the chest area..just like when doing close grip inclines it works the inner fibers of the chest greater...prob explaining this statement right here : "The close grip incline barbell bench press can be used for development of the upper clavicular head."

Do your own study...Lift only really wide for a whole day...then see what area of your chest is the most sore....then the following chest day do only really close grip stuff...see which area of the chest is the most sore the next day...Profit
Post 214 IP   flag post
WinnersNeverQuit private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swayz87
Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabemuscular
I don't know - I'm sticking to incline bench presses. I like doing them and they work for me. If I hold my left hand across my upper chest along the clavicle and push straight out, then push up at an angle, I feel a huge difference in how the muscle flexes.

I'll be these guys did lots of incline stuff:





Its because you are lifting with your soul son...and when your soul speaks it usually is right ; )

Ya man this whole thing has been like one BIG azz thread full of BROscience covered in FANCY AZZ talk to make it seem like FACTscience...IMO


Look all I know...is when you do incline presses and you feel your upper chest shit is WAY more flexed and pumped then when you do a flat press....Please explain that fact?! Cause truthfully the fact is the body doesnt lie....

also Look it depends on what your trying to do...If your trying to build a good upper chest with that nice crevice ravine that starts at the bottom of your neck. Then you should be doing close grip Upward press stuff...Either that or Low cable flys. Brought from the low position to a high slightly raised posistion. take of your shirt and watch your own muscles for your self...Not only that I can personally testify I built a nice upper chest split last summer solely from Incline presses and close grip incline presses... OH SHITTTT!!!! In fact here.... wanna see if im lying?????

Here is the challenge (I want all you little betas to try). One find a incline bench. two aquire DBs. Three hold them in a hammer position over head. Keep the two DBs touching each other. Bring them down slowly while flexing the upper chest until they are literally a cm away from touching your upper chest. Then press them striaght back up. The whole time they should be one touching, two hands should be in hammer grip aka horizontal. If you dont feel your upper middle pecs like ever before....Swayz will straight suck a CAWK! SRS take the challenge and get back at me!



but SRS




just out of interest, elbows flared or tucked?
Post 215 IP   flag post
Ankie private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Yes, you missed something there. The pectoralis major is ONE muscle with a common point of insertion, so you can't activate one head without the other. Close-grip incline bench press does develop the upper clavicular head- but it doesn't isolate it, and in fact, develops the entire chest, not JUST the clavicular head. The studies showed that overall development of the chest was better with both inclines and declines than with flat pressing. -EK


I see, but I know its almost impossible to isolate one specific muscle or part of a muscle with any lift. But it clearly states that close grip incline bb press can be used to develop the upper chest/clivicular head (which is what this whole thread was about).
even with concentarted lifts and "isolated" lifts you can't just isolate a single muscle.
Post 216 IP   flag post
AKK private msg quote post Address this user
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/inside_the_muscles_best_chest_and_triceps_exercises
Post 217 IP   flag post
340740 217 17
destitute