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Refining workout Need help8823

hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
So I created this workout about 8 months ago and I have been doing them since then. Now on some of the lifts i have hit a plateau. So I was pointed toward Edward Norton's PHAT which I like but I'm used to mine. So I would like to incorporate some of his workouts into mine. Also I don't mind changing aspects of my workout but mainly keeping it relatively the same. And don't hate on my workout. And I know Resting two days is frowned upon. But I don't really like to workout on weekends mainly because it is logistically hard but if that is required for better results I will attempt to.

Note: Workouts not in order I do them.
Mon.& Wed.& Fri.: Arm Concentration & Abs & legs
- Weighted Dips 3 sets of 5
- Ab Crunch Machine 5 sets of 10 or (10 sets of 10)
- Ab machine turn side-side 3 sets of 5 each side or (3 sets of 10 each side)
- Tricep machine - Push weight down (3 sets of 5)
- Reverse Cambered Curls -Curl Bar (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets 10)
- Upright Rows - Curl Bar (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets 10)
- Cambered Curls - Curl Bar (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets 10)
- Hack Squat - but lift bar all way up like upright row. - Curl Bar (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets 10)
- One arm Dumb-bell rows - Dumb-Bell (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Dumb Bell Zottoman Curls -Dumb-Bell(3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Tricep Extension - Curl Bar or Dumb-bells (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Tricep Stretch - Weighted Ball (3 sets of 25) or (3 sets of 50)
-Side to Side with weighted ball (3 sets of 50) or (3 sets of 75)
- Squats with Olympic Bar (3 sets of 5)
- Seated Leg Press - (5 sets of 5) or (5 sets of 10)
- Seated Leg Curls - (5 sets of 5) or (5 sets of 10)
- Calf-raises Olympic Bar (3 sets of 5) or (5 sets of 10)
- Finger tip Push ups (3 sets of 10)
- Forearm Curls -Curl Bar (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)

Tues. & Thursday: Chest & Back
- Side lateral raises with cable machine (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Seated Dumbbell Press or Machine with cables (3 sets of 5)
- Iso-lateral Shoulder Press Machine with plates) (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Front Pull Down Plate Machine (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10(
- Iso-lateral Incline Chest Press Plate Machine (3 sets of 5) or (3 sets of 10)
- Pectoral Fly Machine and Deltoid. (acts as two work outs) (6 sets of 5) or (6 sets of 10)
- Bench Press - (3 sets of 5)
- flat Dumb bell press (3 sets of 5)
- Straight Legged Dead lifts Olympic or Curl bar (3 sets of 5)
- Romanian Dead Lifts Olympic or Curl (3 sets of 5)
- Cling with Press olympic or Curl (3 sets of 5)
- Pull Ups Weighted or Non-weighted (3 sets of 5-10)(Neutral, Wide, Close Grips) All grips get 1 set.
- Chin Ups Weighted or Non-weighted (1 set of 5-10)

Saturday & Sunday No Lifting Rest days
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
No idea that Edward Norton had a routine. Yours is all over the place. Junk it, bite the bullet, and run a program designed by a professional with decades of experience. I hear LAYNE Norton has a good routine called PHAT. -3X
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
No idea that Edward Norton had a routine. Yours is all over the place. Junk it, bite the bullet, and run a program designed by a professional with decades of experience. I hear LAYNE Norton has a good routine called PHAT. -3X


Lol i mean't layne Norton's PHAT my bad dunno where Edward came from. But do i have to bite the bullet on this one. Is there nothing good to my workout?
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
Agree with @ek ... Seems all over the place. Exercises are good, but there just isn't any "routine" to it and at a glance it looks like a lot a volume, especially for arms. PHAT has worked for a lot of members on here, and others run a few other splits found in the main page. Don't forget, diet plays a crucial role as well.
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
Agree with @ek ... Seems all over the place. Exercises are good, but there just isn't any "routine" to it and at a glance it looks like a lot a volume, especially for arms. PHAT has worked for a lot of members on here, and others run a few other splits found in the main page. Don't forget, diet plays a crucial role as well.


I guess a better question of mine would be. Could i alter the PHAT to be more arm oriented and could I add workouts to it. Most of those being workouts i listed above. Also could i alter some of his workouts just because i cannot do them because I do not have access to the proper equipment. And as for diet I am eating pretty healthy well except today screwed up. But i cook all my meals got my macros and calories in order. So i think im good on that. I am also checking my bodyfat daily so not to go over 15% and if I am 15% or more I cut for 1-2weeks down to 13.5-12% then continue bulking.
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
Arms 3 times over 5 days and chest/back 2 times over 3 days?

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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMailliw
Arms 3 times over 5 days and chest/back 2 times over 3 days?


I find this funny but could you expand more on that.
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
Too quick for muscles to fully recover, muscle protein synthesis is elevated for roughly 72 hours after weight training.

Although the first 48 hours are where it is elevated the most, the last day is still important.

Another couple of things:
- Way too many sets! You must camp in your gym overnight
- You do dumbbell rows on your arms/leg/abs day so work back 5 days in a row
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMailliw
Too quick for muscles to fully recover, muscle protein synthesis is elevated for roughly 72 hours after weight training.
Although the first 48 hours are where it is elevated the most, the last day is still important.
Another couple of things:
- Way too many sets! You must camp in your gym overnight
- You do dumbbell rows on your arms/leg/abs day so work back 5 days in a row


Thanks man. And to answer camping question. The gym i go to is really nice but most people who workout their aren't really lifting. Also here is my variation to the PHAT some critque would be nice.

PHAT Training Overview:
Day 1: Upper Body Power
Day 2: Lower Body Power
Day 3: Back and Shoulders Hypertrophy
Day 4: Lower Body Hypertrophy
Day 5: Chest and Arms Hypertrophy
Day 6: Abs and Light Cardio
Day 7: Rest (light cardio)
Note: Italic means don’t have access to machine.
Bold is a workout I want to add or substitute.


Day 1: Upper Body Power Day
• Pulling Power Movement: Bent over or Pendlay rows
3 sets of 3-5 reps
• Assistance Pulling movement: Weighted Pull ups
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Auxiliary Pulling movement: Rack chins
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Pressing Power Movement: Flat dumbbell presses
3 sets of 3-5 reps
• Assistance pressing movement: Weighted dips
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Assistance pressing movement: Seated dumbbell shoulder presses
3 sets of 6-10 reps
• Auxiliary curling movement: Cambered bar curls
3 sets of 6-10 reps
• Auxiliary extension movement: Skull crushers
3 sets of 6-10 reps
• - Hack Squat but pull up all way (3 sets of 6-10 reps)
• Upright Rows in addition to bent over or substitute(3 sets of 6-10)




Day 2: Lower Body Power Day
• Pressing Power Movement: Squats
3 sets of 3-5 reps
• Assistance pressing movement: Hack Squats
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Assistance extension movement: Leg extensions
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Assistance pulling movement: Stiff legged deadlifts
3 sets of 5-8 reps
• Assistance pulling/curling movement: Glute ham raises or lying leg curls
2 sets of 6-10 reps
• Auxiliary calf movement: Standing calf raise
3 sets of 6-10 reps
• Auxiliary calf movement: Seated calf raise
2 sets of 6-10 reps


Day 3: Back and Shoulders Hypertrophy Day
• Pulling Power Exercise speed work: Bent over or Pendlay rows
6 sets of 3 reps with 65-70% of normal 3-5 rep max
• Hypertrophy pulling movement: Rack chins
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy pulling movement: Seated cable row
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy pulling movement: Dumbbell rows or shrugs bracing upper body against an incline bench
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy pulling movement: Close grip pulldowns
2 sets of 15-20 reps
• Hypertrophy shoulder movement: Seated dumbbell presses
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy shoulder movement: Upright rows
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy shoulder movement: Side lateral raises with dumbbells or cables
3 sets of 12-20 reps


Day 4: Lower Body Hypertrophy Day
• Lower Body Power Exercise speed work: Squats
6 sets of 3 reps with 65-70% of normal 3-5 rep max
• Hypertrophy pressing movement: Hack squats
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy pressing movement: Leg presses
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy extension movement: Leg extensions
3 sets of 15-20 reps
• Hypertrophy pulling movement: Romanian deadlifts
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy curling movement: Lying leg curls
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy curling movement: Seated leg curls
2 sets of 15-20 reps
• Hypertrophy calf movement: Donkey calf raises
4 sets of 10-15 reps
• Hypertrophy calf movement: Seated calf raises
3 sets of 15-20 reps


Day 5: Chest and Arms Hypertrophy Day
• Pressing Power Exercise speed work: Flat dumbbell presses
6 sets of 3 reps with 65-70% of normal 3-5 rep max
• Hypertrophy pressing movement: Incline dumbbell presses
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy pressing movement: Hammer strength chest press
3 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy fly movement: Incline cable flyes
2 sets of 15-20 reps
• Hypertrophy curling exercise: Cambered bar preacher curls
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy curling exercise: Dumbbell concentration curls
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy curling exercise: Spider curls bracing upper body against an incline bench
2 sets of 15-20 reps
• Hypertrophy extension exercise: Seated tricep extension with cambered bar
3 sets of 8-12 reps
• Hypertrophy extension exercise: Cable pressdowns with rope attachment
2 sets of 12-15 reps
• Hypertrophy extension exercise: Cable kickbacks
2 sets of 15-20 reps
• Seated tricep extension machine in addition to seated tricep with curl bar
• Zottoman Curls with dumbbell – (2 sets of 12-15reps)
• Fingertip Curls/Forearm curls with Curl Bar (2 sets of 15-20reps)
• Reverse Curls with Curlbar (3 sets of 8-12 reps)
• Hack squat all way up with curl bar (3 sets of 8-12 reps)



Day 6: Rest
• Ab Crunch machine (5 sets of 10)
• Ab turn side to side (5 sets of 10)
• Cardio – Running and Jumprope


Day 7: Light Cardio
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WinnersNeverQuit private msg quote post Address this user
To be honest I've always thought phat has a lot of unnecessary volume to it, I'd just do a dumbed down version, I don't know where to link it from but I remember a while ago that EK posted the original PHAT somewhere, and I always thought that would be the better option
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4real private msg quote post Address this user
Cab you bench 225 squat 315 and dead 405 for 5sets of 5? If not your not advanced enough for phat
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WinnersNeverQuit private msg quote post Address this user
@4real I don't agree with that, you can start it whenever you want as long as you can handle the volume, everyone can gain well from both a mix of strength & hypo training, if he can't already hit those number then PHAT will be a sure fire way of helping him to reach them. But as I said before, I don't think that all the volume is necessary to make gains in my opinion
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4real private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnersNeverQuit
@4real I don't agree with that, you can start it whenever you want as long as you can handle the volume, everyone can gain well from both a mix of strength & hypo training, if he can't already hit those number then PHAT will be a sure fire way of helping him to reach them. But as I said before, I don't think that all the volume is necessary to make gains in my opinion
just by looking at it it looks extraordinarily taxing and very little rest i agree high ass fuckin volume
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MrMailliw private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnersNeverQuit
To be honest I've always thought phat has a lot of unnecessary volume to it, I'd just do a dumbed down version, I don't know where to link it from but I remember a while ago that EK posted the original PHAT somewhere, and I always thought that would be the better option


Exactly what I always think.
A condensed version would be something I would jump on!
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
So as for my variation of phat are the works out i added(in bold) good (with the reps and the like). Also for the italic stuff what can i substitute for those workouts.
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
My question is, why so much arm volume? You really only need 6-8 sets for bis/tris. One of the smallest muscle groups. PHAT is not an end all be all program, most guys do their own variation of it. Whatever exercises work for you.
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
My question is, why so much arm volume? You really only need 6-8 sets for bis/tris. One of the smallest muscle groups. PHAT is not an end all be all program, most guys do their own variation of it. Whatever exercises work for you.


I just enjoy working arms more and they are my strongest muscles right now and I would like to keep them on a similar workout to what they have been doing. But a lot of the extra workouts for arm stuff are for alternative muscle groups. But I dont mind changing sets.

Reverse Curls Work forearm & Most of arm. Zottoman work both bicep and forearm. The seated tricep is just habit and i want to max out on the machine I am like 25lbs from the machines limit. Finger tip curls improve grip strength & forearm strength. And Hack-squats but lifting all the way up work pretty much whole arm.
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
What I'm getting at is that you can keep your arm size/strength without all those sets. Working your chest/back hammers them well enough on top of 6-8 sets. If you run the program as designed, replacing some exercises with similar exercises, you're going to see results. I suggest checking out some of the logs on here and you'll see the evidence.
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
What I'm getting at is that you can keep your arm size/strength without all those sets. Working your chest/back hammers them well enough on top of 6-8 sets.


Could you type which workouts with the sets & reps. I don't mind changing them i just don't know which workouts your pointing to. Are these the ones your talking about? Also I will look around for what your talking about. And I don't mind substituting tell me which ones would be best to substitute in and which ones to throw out.

• Seated tricep extension machine in addition to seated tricep with curl bar (__ sets of __ reps)
• Zottoman Curls with dumbbell – (2 sets of __reps)
• Fingertip Curls/Forearm curls with Curl Bar (2 sets of __reps)
• Reverse Curls with Curlbar (3 sets of __ reps)
• Hack squat all way up with curl bar (3 sets of __ reps)
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Well since I haven't gotten any replies i am just going to follow my variation of the phat with those sets for now until i hear back. Starting PHAT today and really excited hopefully I will see more improvement.
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
Why don't you look at the original PHAT template or check some of the member logs on here where they run variations of PHAT? It's what you're looking for, short of someone creating a routine for you.
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
Why don't you look at the original PHAT template or check some of the member logs on here where they run variations of PHAT? It's what you're looking for, short of someone creating a routine for you.

The PHAT i put up is the most recent PHAT from Layne Nortons P.H.A.T.? Also why would the original phat be any better? The stuff in bold is stuff i added? And i am not trying to have anybody create a workout. I am now following what i just recently put up. What i was asking is if the sets and stuff in bold are good amounts and what i could substitute for italic because i do not have access to proper equipment. I mean I have looked at other peoples stuff but alot of the workouts i added aren't really used by most people so thats why i wanted some guidance.
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotborad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
Why don't you look at the original PHAT template or check some of the member logs on here where they run variations of PHAT? It's what you're looking for, short of someone creating a routine for you.

The PHAT i put up is the most recent PHAT from Layne Nortons P.H.A.T.? Also why would the original phat be any better? The stuff in bold is stuff i added? And i am not trying to have anybody create a workout. I am now following what i just recently put up. What i was asking is if the sets and stuff in bold are good amounts and what i could substitute for italic because i do not have access to proper equipment. I mean I have looked at other peoples stuff but alot of the workouts i added aren't really used by most people so thats why i wanted some guidance.


Wasn't trying to sound like a dick, just quick typing on my phone, so apologies first. Here's what I'd do:

Day 1: don't do the hack squats. It's upper body power day, and you're doing hack squats on day 2.

Day 2: Since you don't have a lying leg curl, do seated leg curls or if you have a cable machine and have a handle/strap that you can wrap around your ankle, do a standing leg curl. If not, do more seated leg curls.

Day 3: Since you can't do seated cable rows, use the machine that you do incline cable flyes on, grab a chair/stool, or sit on the floor. BAM! seated cable rows.

Day 4: lying leg curls (see day 1 above), donkey calf raises, do standing calf raises.

Day 5: Since there is nothing italicized, DROP all your bolded exercises from the routine entirely (there are already more than enough arm exercises to for strength and size) or replace 1 for 1 with an exercise of your choice. For example, replace DB curls with your Zottoman curls.

I'm also curious about your variation of a hack squat ... why with a curl bar and why on upper power/hypertrophy days?
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotborad
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81
Why don't you look at the original PHAT template or check some of the member logs on here where they run variations of PHAT? It's what you're looking for, short of someone creating a routine for you.

The PHAT i put up is the most recent PHAT from Layne Nortons P.H.A.T.? Also why would the original phat be any better? The stuff in bold is stuff i added? And i am not trying to have anybody create a workout. I am now following what i just recently put up. What i was asking is if the sets and stuff in bold are good amounts and what i could substitute for italic because i do not have access to proper equipment. I mean I have looked at other peoples stuff but alot of the workouts i added aren't really used by most people so thats why i wanted some guidance.


Ok, still, it looks like a lot of unnecessary arm exercises. Here's what I'd do:

Day 1: don't do the hack squats. It's upper body power day, and you're doing hack squats on day 2.

Day 2: Since you don't have a lying leg curl, do seated leg curls or if you have a cable machine and have a handle/strap that you can wrap around your ankle, do a standing leg curl. If not, do more seated leg curls.

Day 3: Since you can't do seated cable rows, use the machine that you do incline cable flyes on, grab a chair/stool, or sit on the floor. BAM! seated cable rows.

Day 4: lying leg curls (see day 1 above), donkey calf raises, do standing calf raises.

Day 5: Since there is nothing italicized, DROP all your bolded exercises from the routine entirely (there are already more than enough arm exercises to for strength and size) or replace 1 for 1 with an exercise of your choice. For example, replace DB curls with your Zottoman curls.

I'm also curious about your variation of a hack squat ... why with a curl bar and why on upper power/hypertrophy days?


The hack squat thing isn't really a hack squat. You use that form and its kind of like upright rows but from behind. I forgot the name of this workout. But i read in a few books that this workout can't remember the name is a great way to work on arms in general and works out different muscle groups than upright rows. So with combination with upright rows you get a workout that really works out all the arm muscle groups and when i mean different muscles i mean different parts of muscle. Ie. (Zottoman works more inner bicep and forearm than normal Curl works outside and upper bicep. Might be wrong on normal curl but zottoman works more inner and forearm.) Also for the un-named workout you can use a squat bar it doesn't matter i generally used Curl Bar just because I was using that for my curling, Forearm curls, tricep extension etc... it was just easier to use same bar. Also people hog the squat bar my gym only has a few.

oh and thanks for the advice.
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SwoleAnimal private msg quote post Address this user
I'm not really sure of your goals but I am kind of under the "just lift" camp. Just do a rountine you like and one you can recover from and keep progressing. I believe you are advanced enough to make smart decisions on training.
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Monster81 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotborad
The hack squat thing isn't really a hack squat. You use that form and its kind of like upright rows but from behind. I forgot the name of this workout. But i read in a few books that this workout can't remember the name is a great way to work on arms in general and works out different muscle groups than upright rows. So with combination with upright rows you get a workout that really works out all the arm muscle groups and when i mean different muscles i mean different parts of muscle. Ie. (Zottoman works more inner bicep and forearm than normal Curl works outside and upper bicep. Might be wrong on normal curl but zottoman works more inner and forearm.) Also for the un-named workout you can use a squat bar it doesn't matter i generally used Curl Bar just because I was using that for my curling, Forearm curls, tricep extension etc... it was just easier to use same bar. Also people hog the squat bar my gym only has a few.

oh and thanks for the advice.


Are you talking about a behind the back shrug? Just thinking about the form of a hack squat, the bar is behind you, so there really is no natural way to work the arms.

As far a isolating different heads of the biceps, it's accepted around here you cannot work one head more than the other due to the muscle having only one insertion point. The bicep either contracts or it doesn't, regardless of the exercise.

No problem on the advice, sometimes it just takes a bit longer to get responses on these forums.
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hotborad private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster81

Are you talking about a behind the back shrug? Just thinking about the form of a hack squat, the bar is behind you, so there really is no natural way to work the arms.

As far a isolating different heads of the biceps, it's accepted around here you cannot work one head more than the other due to the muscle having only one insertion point. The bicep either contracts or it doesn't, regardless of the exercise.

No problem on the advice, sometimes it just takes a bit longer to get responses on these forums.


Well the lift isn't a behind back shrug you lift the bar all the way up to the lower part of your Abs if looking in mirror/(essentially a few inches bellow the start of your Latissimus Dorsi which you can't see). Essentially a behind the back upright row or (reverse upright row). Natural who cares its working muscles in a unique way causing them to grow. Therefore growing a unique muscle set.
Thread about workout



- This is what I am talking about except i lift maybe 5-6 inches higher.

And to your comment on insertion points. I am by no means an expert but even with one point you can twist and tighten the muscle in different directions therefore causing development in different areas in the muscle. Now its very little development but its still working one area over another.
Bodybuilding.com Article
- Couldn't find any other online articles about it.

And yeah in the past its generally taken a few days to get good advice but thankfully i got it; thanks again.
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