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What do you guys think? (Experienced BBers)5321

Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
I have been doing Layne's PHAT program for almost a year now. I have see awesome gains while on this routine, more then on any other before, but I have also slowly started getting joint pains here an there.
I usually ice them heal them and they get back to normal, but I noticed that whenever Layne or other BBer's talk about his program they say they don't do it year round, they mix it in or do some type of linear periodization.

I was wondering what routine I should change it up to, Y3T possibly? or any other ideas? That way I can give my joints a slight rest from PHAT or do you guys think its ok to stay on PHAT indefinitely?

I was trying to come up with my own too, but I can't seem to figure out a good solid way to hit every body part 2x per week like PHAT does. Any help you guys can give me would be great. Thank you
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NorIda private msg quote post Address this user
Have you taken any deloads!?
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Thor private msg quote post Address this user
I've actually just been having a private message conversation about this exact issue.

If you've been training for ~2 years, a 2x week split like PHAT, for the purposes of hypertrophy, is unlikely to yield noticeably better gains than a 1x week split.

This is because after 2 years, diminishing returns on muscle gains make the additional yield of a 2x week split not worth the risk of injury. It'll be a marginal difference between a 1x & 2x week split.

You can follow a 3-4 week linear periodization if you like the strength training or a straight up 5 day, single muscle group per day split. You can throw weaker body parts on twice quite easily, but overall decrease the volume and frequency that any muscle encounters twice per week.
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Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, well nothing more then like 3 days to 1 week max
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Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
@Thor Thanks for this reply, and it kind of makes sense I did feel like at the beginning of PHAT I was gaining more strength and "size", but definitely has been slowing down at the tail end of it, with injuries among us (2 work out partners) increasing. I think its more of a mind set now, but I am nervous to go back to a 1x per week split since 2x worked so well for me
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TheBangBus private msg quote post Address this user
curious.... hows your form? or are you over reaching with your weights?
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Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
@thebangbus I would say for the most part, my form is pretty well off. I pay really close attention when doing squats, deadlifts since I am a dental student so I need my lower back to be pain free when seeing patients. You are right though I could always re-check form too
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TheBangBus private msg quote post Address this user
Perfect! form is so important, other then that id say pushing yourself past the brink for to long other then that... all i can think is not having the diet behind the workout...
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Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah good call, thanks for the tips. Do any of you guys have any thoughts on Y3T?
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brian12 private msg quote post Address this user
@Thor

That's an interesting theory. Do you have some research to back that up. Sounds logical, but I wouldn't mind seeing how the conclusions were drawn.

Totally agree that a twice a week split is always going to better for a newbie vs less frequency. But I am still of the opinion that training twice a week (like upper/lower), with reduced volume on each day is better than just once week (where we would have the same total volume per muscle per week in both training methods)

Thoughts?
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Adiaz10x private msg quote post Address this user
Anybody else have any other suggestions or ideas?
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TheBangBus private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiaz10x
Anybody else have any other suggestions or ideas?


Joint problems run in the family? thats the only other thing i could think of... Id personally just do a deload for a few weeks and if the problem persists... see a doctor as they "should" be more knowledgeable then anyone on here.
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Feros private msg quote post Address this user
For joints, if you wanna avoid seeing a doctor or physio about it...

Make sure you are supping fish oil adequately, possibly glucosamine

Could also be something to do with your supporting muscles, rotators etc...

If its an option you could change any cardio to swimming
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Thor private msg quote post Address this user
Ok, had a couple of people ask me why training twice a week gets worse over time in comparison to single week training. Here's a small graph showing why:




A few things to understand:
(i) The amount of muscle we can gain is limited.
(ii) As a consequence, training twice a week will initially give much greater results than single week training, however as you approach the limit of natural muscle growth, the difference is substantially less.
(iii) The figures I've used for this graph are entirely plucked out of my own head and shouldn't be relied on. The demonstrate the trend only.(Though, fyi, 9kg is possible in your first year natty.)

Hope this helps.

AND I HOPE YOU ALL REP ME FOR THE TIME I PUT INTO THIS WONDERFUL GRAPH
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BEASTIX private msg quote post Address this user
So Thor, what you are saying is that over the FUCKING years, Squatting ONCE,TWICE or THREE times a week doesnt have alot of INFLUENCE becuase there is a limit of natural GROWTH?
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IrishGymSheep private msg quote post Address this user
Muscle gain is only a small part of it though.
Training multiple times a week can be great for a number of things depending on how you do your workouts, joints and ligaments, vascularity, tone ( talking about the state of tonus where by using heavy weights regularly your muscles are in a constant state of being semi flexed) strength, performance.

Bodybuilding sometimes has a very less is more attitude towards direct goals, but there are so many secondary and tertiary factors to consider.

Not to mention the fact that you would have to consider what routines these people did twice a week their diet and nutrition etc.
There are quite a lot of benefits to more "Intelligent" training.

If you are just a Joe Soap casual gym goer then I certainly see the point of effort vs reward.
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Thor private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEASTIX
So Thor, what you are saying is that over the FUCKING years, Squatting ONCE,TWICE or THREE times a week doesnt have alot of INFLUENCE becuase there is a limit of natural GROWTH?


Yes, correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishGymSheep
Muscle gain is only a small part of it though.
Training multiple times a week can be great for a number of things depending on how you do your workouts, joints and ligaments, vascularity, tone ( talking about the state of tonus where by using heavy weights regularly your muscles are in a constant state of being semi flexed) strength, performance.

Bodybuilding sometimes has a very less is more attitude towards direct goals, but there are so many secondary and tertiary factors to consider.

Not to mention the fact that you would have to consider what routines these people did twice a week their diet and nutrition etc.
There are quite a lot of benefits to more "Intelligent" training.

If you are just a Joe Soap casual gym goer then I certainly see the point of effort vs reward.


Tbh I think the only advantages in a twice weekly split is strength, since it actually progresses in a bit more of a linear fashion than hypertrophy.

For anyone interested in the actual rate of the diminishing returns, here's some real world figures:

Alan Aragon:
Category Rate of Muscle Gain
Beginner 1-1.5% total body weight per month
Intermediate 0.5-1% total body weight per month
Advanced 0.25-0.5% total body weight per month

McDonald:
1 20-25 pounds (2 pounds per month)
2 10-12 pounds (1 pound per month)
3 5-6 pounds (0.5 pound per month)
4+ 2-3 pounds (not worth calculating)

(Took these from my old thread on natty bbing.)
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brian12 private msg quote post Address this user
@Thor

Saw your posts now.. And yes, I repped you ^^
Post 18 IP   flag post
Thor private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian12
@Thor

Saw your posts now.. And yes, I repped you ^^


Haha, good man.

If I get the time later, I might make an actual graph, that takes account of the rate of muscle growth shown in the studies comparing twice weekly v single weekly as well as predicted muscle gains under ideal conditions, over a 5 year period or something.
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