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PPL hitting upper body 2x per week19318

mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
I get you. Just don’t really agree. I use 1-3 light sets - depending on the exercise - to get the movement pattern firing and acclimatise my joints etc, but they are so submaximal that I would never be inclined to count them into overall volume.

5 working sets is 5 working sets, regardless of how you work up to your first work set. The only difference between a beginner and an advanced lifter in that scenario is the weight used. I don’t think any elite lifters are doing less volume than a beginner.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Movement pattern is low level approach, to get better results more than this needed, got to make muscle work harder, get inside that muscle and imagine how it works as Arnold said, imagine like curtain opens when training back etc, mind muscle connection is no joke and has been confirmed by studies. Well..guess for someone movement pattern is enough, in this case don't be surprised with average gains, that you can't go beyond..
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The Dark
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eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Movement pattern is the MOST important thing to training. You’re a little out of your league at this point, I think. The first 6 weeks of performing an exercise, you don’t even achieve any kind of actual growth because your motor neurons are adapting to the movement. It’s only after an exercise or routine goes beyond the neural adaptation stage that growth begins. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Thats what I meant, movement pattern beginners approach
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Jsn3004 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by frame
if a beginner does dumbbell rows he may need only 1 warmup set until he starts his working sets, so his optimal amount of sets per week for back would be 20 sets. More advanced lifter would need 3-4 warmup sets with relatively heavy weight until his working sets of 6-8 reps with 50 kg dumbbell.


Doesn't this just apply to the first lift? If my first lift was barbell rows i'm going to perform warm-up sets, but if my next movement was lat pull-downs, i'm going straight into my working sets. I wouldn't be warming up for every single movement.
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@frame certainly not. You don’t see veteran baseball players stop practicing their swing or veteran basketball players stop practicing their shooting. The best athletes in the world still go to practice in every major sport. They don’t just show up on game day. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Depends, if you do deadlift first then weighted chinups next and then dumbell rows all up to 6 reps advanced lifter gona need at least some ramp up sets on every exercise..
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Why would they need that? Once my muscles are warmed up, they’re warmed up. They don’t need to be further warned up. This is literally taken straight from my log when I was still competing:

Upper day:
Reverse pec deck: 5x25x20
Bench press: bar x 5/135x5/225x3/275x1/315x1/365x1/begin working sets
Working sets 3x385x3
DB Swiss ball bench: 3x100x12
Cable cross-overs: 3x 6 plates x 15
Triceps press down: 100 total reps

After my initial exercise, there was no further warming up, and the warm-up sets (total of 16 reps) are there to practice the movement pattern with progressively heavier load, no other reason. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
For chest it is undestandable but for back ramp up needed, cant go and jump straight to 25 kgs plates on weighted pullups or straight to 50kg dumbbell rows without few ramp up sets, lats are not ready yet for that case..
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I disagree. If my back workout is chins, rows, lat pulldowns, cable pullovers and DB rows, I would do one set of unweighted chins, then go into whatever weight I would use to get my target reps and for all other exercises, immediately use my working sets. Why would you do otherwise?

If you can do DB rows for sets of 10 with the 80s, why would you waste time doing sets with the 50s, 60s or 70s first? By the time you get to the 80s you’re doing to be fatigued and it’s going to hurt performance. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Still there deadlift ramp up needed, then if go heavy on db rows like 50kg for 6 reps, would you still just go for working sets without ramp up? This s weird, arent you afraid to injure yourself, lats are a big muscle..
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The Dark
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Well for starters, deadlifts aren’t a lat movement, they’re a lower body movement, and have no business on back day at all.

But they would fall under the same warm-up bench did. Progressively heavier singles to prime the neural system.

No offense, but I’m starting to see why you aren’t making gains gains anymore. Too much volume, and your approach to training is not optimal. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Why do I feel whole back after heavy deads.. this is arguable that they fall just into lower body day, I've seen some athletes did include deads on back day.
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I’ve seem that too, but it’s not correct. The prime movement in a deadlift is hip extension and knee extension, same as a squat. While the lumbar and thoracic spine may be contributing to the movement, the lats are not, and excessive lumbar involvement is what leads to injury. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Thx for help all! Hope this thread will be helpful for someone.
Here is final split, let the gains begin now

Push1
3x5 DB bench press
3x6 Incline bb/db bench press
2x10 Upright rows supersetted with lateral raises
4x5 Cable pushdowns preformed with 30 secs rest between sets with weight pyramid up
1x15 reverse arm cable pushdowns
1x15 Pec deck

Push2
3x10 Incline machine chest press
3x6 Arnold press
2x10 Machine chest press
2x12 Side delt smith machine row bar behind back or cable row cable behind back
2x10 Machine triceps extensions
2x8 Machine crunches

Pull1
3x6 Weighted chinups
2x6 Dumbbell rows
2x8 Db shrugs
2x10 CG pulldowns
2x8 Bb arm curls
1x12 Hammer curls
2x12 Bent over db raises

Pull2
3x8 Machine pulldowns
2x8 Machine rows
2x10 Straight-arm lat pulldown
3x10 Preacher curls
2x10 Chest supported rear delt db rows

Lower
2-3x10-12 Calf raises
3x6 Front squats
3x5-3 Deadlifts
2x8 Leg press
2x8 Leg curls
3x8 Cable crunches

Mon - off
Tue - Push1
Wed - Legs
Thu - Pull2
Fri - off
Sat - Push2
Sun - Pull1
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Did not look at all specific exercises, but there’s a few of them I’d veto. In general, too, you have far too little pulling volume. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Pull1 volume: 50 sets + db raises 24 sets
Pull2 volume: 60 sets + 2 chest-supported db rows 20 sets
In total 154 sets of pulling plus + 20 sets of upright rows and +20 more if lateral raises may be considered pulling.
I've counted 99 sets of pushing movements in total.
So almost 2 ratio if lat raises and bent over dumbbell raises fall into pulling, latter are rear delt work, still not that bad, almost 2 ratio, if these exercises are not considered as pulling then I guess there could have been place for face pulls instead of something, I just feel face pulls more like a warmup exercise, not like a delt or upper back builder or anything..
ah yeah, and there are also smith machine rows for rear/side delts, so there is ratio pull:push over 2 if everything above taken into account. Not that bad...
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The Dark
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Lateral raises are neither push nor pull, so I’d yank them out of your math (but not your workout). It’s still a little short. There’s a really easy fix- drop upright rows entirely (and add 20 years to the life of your shoulders bc those are just about the worst exercise ever created for the shoulder joint) and replace them with 100 reps of band pull-aparts. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Edited as per @eknight suggestion,
-upright rows / actually I was not 100% sure about these but now taking them out.
+1-2 sets of lateral raises
~100-120 Band pull aparts per week are included in my scapula mobility routine that I follow usually after every push day in the evening at home.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Typo. Just realized I wrote sets i/o reps there when counted pull:push ratio, that obv are reps. 178 reps pulling + band pull aparts : 99 reps pushing. Should be fine now. Cheers
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Gona go with this split for a long time without exceeding weekly volume, will be doing ramp up only on first exercises for strength, on other exercises gona just do light 1 set prior working ones, will report how it goes.
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Small update: progress goes good on all main lifts so far except of chest strength - was benching same weight 3 weeks in a row and last time even less reps with same weight, decided to cut down chest volume to recover better:
minus 1set of incl bb/db chest press and minus 1set of pecdec on first push day; minus -2 sets of machine chest press on second push day, +1 set of crossover on second push day, also added more band pull aparts just between first warm up sets on push days.

Now split looks like this. Going to continue doing this split as long as I progress on main lifts.

Push1
3x5 DB bench press
2x8 Incline bb/db bench press
3x10-14 lateral raises
2x8 Cable pushdowns
2x8 Scullcrushers


Push2
3x8 Incline machine chest press
3x6 Arnold press
3x12 Side delt smith machine row bar behind back or cable row cable behind back
1x15 Cable Flyes
2x10 Machine triceps extensions
3x8 Machine crunches

Pull1
3x6 Weighted chinups
2x8 Dumbbell rows
2x8 Db shrugs
2x10 CG pulldowns
2x8 Bb arm curls
1x12 Hammer curls
2x12 Bent over db raises

Pull2
3x8 Machine pulldowns
2x8 Machine rows
2x10 Chest supported rear delt db rows
2x10 Preacher curls
2x10 Straight-arm lat pulldown

Lower
3x6 Front squats
3x3 Deadlifts
3x10-12 Calf raises
2x8 Leg press
2x8 Leg curls
2x8 Cable crunches

Mon - off
Tue - Push1
Wed - Lower
Thu - Pull2
Fri - off
Sat - Push2
Sun - Pull1
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