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PPL hitting upper body 2x per week19318

frame private msg quote post Address this user
Hey guys,

I have made so much gains that I hardly progress in the gym, very close to genetic limits and came to a conclusion that I got to change something in my training and decided to switch to PPL split with 2x frequency for Upper body. As I do a lot of cycling my legs are getting a lot of work besides gym and are pretty much far ahead compared with my upper body, so it is enough for me to hit them once a week in the gym.

I usually do scapula mobility/rotator cuff work before upper body training and some scapula movements at home and sometimes also hit abs at home so they get slightly more frequency.

What do you think about such split for late intermediate/advanced lifter?

Mon - off
Tue - Push1 / strength focus
Wed - Legs
Thu - Pull 2 / hypertrophy focus
Fri - off
Sat - Push2 / hypertrophy focus
Sun - Pull1 / strength focus

Push1 - strength focused
3x3-5 Db bench press - pyramid up in weight until 3 working sets
2x6 Inclinde bb/db press
3x 10/10 Upright rows/lateral raises supersetted
4x6 Cable pushdowns performed with weight pyramid up and rests 30 seconds
2x8 Cable flyes
1x15 Cable pushdowns

Push2 - hypertrophy focused
3x8-10 Incline machine chest press
2-3x6 Arnold dumbbell press / pyramid up in weight with 2-3 working sets of 6 reps in the end
3x12 Cable lateral raises
3x8-10 Machine chest press
3x12-15 Side delt row - bar behind back on the smith machine or cable shoulder pulls - cable behind back
3x8-10 Pec deck flyes
3x10-12 Triceps extensions machine

Pull1 - strength focused
3x3-5 Deadlifts - pyramid up until 3 working sets
2x6 Weighted chinups - pyramid up in weights until 2 working sets of 6 reps
2x6-8 db rows - pyramid up in weight until 2 working sets of 6-8 reps
2x8 Shrugs - pyramid up in weight until 2 working sets of 8 reps
2x6-8 Arm curls
1x12 Hammer curls
2x12-15 Db bent over raises
3x12 Face Pulls
3x8 Cable crunches

Pull2 - hypertrophy focused

3x8-10 Machine pulldowns
2x8-10 Cable rows
3x8-10 Pulldowns close grip
2x8-10 Machine rows
2x15 Straight-Arm lat pulldowns
3x10-12 Machine preacher curls
3x8-10 Machine crunches

Legs
3x10 Calves
3x6 Front squats - pyramid up in weight until 3x working sets of 6 reps
2x8 Leg press
2x10 Straight leg deadlifts
3x8 Leg curls
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mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
Not the worst thing in the world. But I’ve never seen the point of having strength/hypertrophy workouts. You can train the both qualities simultaneously within a single workout. I find keeping the same exercises each session for a longer period of time works better personally.

Also, what makes you think you’re nearing your genetic limit?
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
I've found it quite hard for recovery to combine both strength and hypertrophy in one training day for major muscles especially. Plus high intensity work affects all lifts after first 2-3 lifts, and that makes all other lifts weaker. As an example if you combine both types of training for major muscle groups same day then you won't be able to perform on the same level for next lifts after first 2-3 exercises: like you do moderate deadlifts, proper warmup, then 3 working sets 3-5 reps, then second high intensity exercise for strength, weighted chinups 2-3 working sets and after that you almost out of steam for proper hypertrophy work if compared to training if you are fresh, means you do less reps with same weight compared to the work that could have been done on dedicated hypertrophy day.
Another benefit of splitting str and hypertrophy is that you better focus on something one and tunnel vision this with greater success compared with jack of all trades approach, especially if you are advanced trainee, that works almost everywhere not just in the gym.
Having same exercises for longer period is for tracking strength, that is incl. in above program ( hitting same exercises every week on strength days).

I am training for 6 years consistently and barely gaining muscle any more that is why I am quite close to max possible gains, first 2 years was really noticeable but now I see how it is really hard to gain anything at all , gain of 1-2 kg of lean mass for upcoming 4 years would be like best case scenario I suppose, maybe a bit more if I'm very lucky and give 110 %
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The Dark
Knight
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6 years? No where near genetic limits. I feel like I've seen a number like 10 years in some literature. Not sure about that, but I've been training 20 years and still make some yearly gains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoshua88
Not the worst thing in the world. But I’ve never seen the point of having strength/hypertrophy workouts. You can train the both qualities simultaneously within a single workout. I find keeping the same exercises each session for a longer period of time works better personally.


Tend to agree here. Training for strength will give you the same hypertrophy gains as "hypertrophy" training. No need to differentiate. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Thx for feedback! I am just out of steam after high intensity work and cannot perform that well for higher volume 8-10 rep work afterwards as if I were fresh, in order to combine both same day I need to cut volume twice I think but I like more volume and seem to respond better to higher volume workouts. And yeah maybe gains do not stop at all, but they are not that noticable as in first few years of training.
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mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
Just hit up one big lift for lower reps, then backfill the rest of your workout with higher volume work for that particular day.

E.g. On a push day, work up to a heavy triple or set of 5 on bench. Then maybe do some kind of incline work for reps, then some volume work for triceps/shoulders.

Doing that twice a week allows for plenty of volume and progression on the most efficient lifts for strength gain. If you can’t do that after your first lift, then you probably need to work on your work capacity/conditioning.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
@mrjoshua88 @eknight

Guys, I see the point, I am still excited to try out above split as gym where I'm going has a lot of machines and I might benefit from this if I include work with them into my volume days as they improve recovery compared to work with free weights. Plus I respond to high volume quite good.
Going to see how it goes for as long as I am able to hang on to this split, then I am going to follow your advise and use adequate approach with less volume but combining strength and higher volume work on the same day. Will report back how it goes, I have a feeling that your advise will work better but still want to try out above split due to mentioned.
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mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
Worthwhile thread was worthwhile.
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The Dark
Knight
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@frame I've pointed this out before, not necessarily to you, but on the board in general- once you've peaked MPS, further hammering your body into submission with additional volume isn't productive. You do NOT respond well to high volume. Your body is the same as everyone else's. You may PREFER high volume, and honestly, there's nothing wrong with that. Part of working out is to have fun and enjoy what you're doing. But the fact that after only six years of training you feel like you're reaching genetic potential and you're at the point of diminishing returns on your gains should tell you that your current high volume training is not working, you don't actually respond to it, and it's time to make changes in your approach if continued gains are your goal. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks for helping me and board then, my updated version of split as follows:

Mon - off
Tue - Push1
Wed - Legs
Thu - Pull2
Fri - off
Sat - Push2
Sun - Pull1

Push1
3x3-5 Db bench press - pyramid up in weight until working sets
2x8-10 Inclinde bb/db press
3x 10/10 Upright rows/lateral raises supersetted
4x6 Cable pushdowns performed with weight pyramid up and rests 30 seconds
2x10 Cable crossover
1x15 Cable pushdowns reverse arm

Push2
3x3-5 Incline db press - pyramid up until working sets
2-3x6 Arnold dumbbell press / pyramid up in weight til working sets of 6 reps in the end
3x12 Cable lateral raises
3x8-10 Machine chest press
3x12-15 Side delt row - bar behind back on the smith machine or cable shoulder pulls - cable behind back
3x10-12 Triceps extensions machine

Pull1
3x3-5 Deadlifts - pyramid up til working sets
2x6 Weighted chinups - pyramid up in weights until working sets
2x8-10 db rows - pyramid up in weight til working sets
2x10 Shrugs - pyramid up in weight until working sets
2x6-8 Arm curls
1x12 Hammer curls
2x12-15 Db bent over raises
2x12 Face Pulls
3x8 Cable crunches

Pull2

3-4x8-10 Machine or hammer strength pulldowns
2-3x6-7 Hammer strength rows - pyramid up until working sets of 6-7 reps
3x8-10 Pulldowns close grip
2x15 Straight-Arm lat pulldowns
3x10-12 Machine preacher curls
3x8-10 Machine crunches

Legs
3x10 Calves
3x6 Front squats - pyramid up in weight until working sets of 6 reps
2x8 Leg press
2x10 Straight leg deadlifts
3x8 Leg curls
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
to sum up weekly volume/working sets per body part:

2nd split version
chest: 13 sets
side delts: 11 sets
triceps: 6 sets
back: 18 sets
rear delts: 4 sets
Biceps: 6 sets
Legs ok

1st split version
chest: 16 sets
side delts: 11 sets
triceps: 6 sets
back: 19 sets
rear delts: 5 sets
Biceps: 6 sets
Legs ok

Does not seem large difference, gona try 2nd version and see how it goes, might need to cut out a bit more volume.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
I've decided to cut back volume from second back day right away to below in order to not waste time as I will do pyramid up sets anyway that add up to overall volume, will add up more or decrease working sets based on feeling/progress, that now brings to weekly back working set volume to 16 sets.

Pull2

3x8-10 hammer strength pulldowns - pyramid up til working sets
2x6-7 Hammer strength rows - pyramid up til working sets
2x8-10 Pulldowns close grip - 1 set warmup and 2 working sets
2x15 Straight-Arm lat pulldowns
3x10-12 Machine preacher curls
3x8-10 Machine crunches
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forgottenpass private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
@frame I've pointed this out before, not necessarily to you, but on the board in general- once you've peaked MPS, further hammering your body into submission with additional volume isn't productive. You do NOT respond well to high volume. Your body is the same as everyone else's. You may PREFER high volume, and honestly, there's nothing wrong with that. Part of working out is to have fun and enjoy what you're doing. But the fact that after only six years of training you feel like you're reaching genetic potential and you're at the point of diminishing returns on your gains should tell you that your current high volume training is not working, you don't actually respond to it, and it's time to make changes in your approach if continued gains are your goal. -3X


I've seen various different numbers thrown around but what would you say is the optimal amount of sets per week, for larger and smaller muscles?
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
optimal amount would be abt 10-12 working sets per week for large muscles and abt 6 working sets for smaller
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The Dark
Knight
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^^I would actually say about twice this. -3X
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Jsn3004 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by frame
optimal amount would be abt 10-12 working sets per week for large muscles and abt 6 working sets for smaller


Yeah assuming you're doing 10-12 working sets per workout and you're hitting those muscle groups twice a week.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Depends on the experience of a lifter, for advanced lifter less workig sets will be more optimal.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Less than the above? Doubtful. Being more advanced doesn’t mean you need to barely train. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
More advanced lifter needs more ramp up sets until working sets means he does more volume until working sets compared to beginner means he needs less working stes, otherwise his recovery will suffer
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
I'm not following what you mean... -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Lets take 1 exercise as an example: if a beginner does dumbbell rows he may need only 1 warmup set until he starts his working sets, so his optimal amount of sets per week for back would be 20 sets. More advanced lifter would need 3-4 warmup sets with relatively heavy weight until his working sets of 6-8 reps with 50 kg dumbbell. Advanced lifter obviously won’t need 20 working sets for 8 reps with 50 kg dumbbell to progress optimally, moreover he most likely will overtrain due to excessive volume that comes from both working sets with heavy ass weight and ramp up sets with relatively heavy weight compared to a beginner...
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mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
What do warmups have to do with anything? I’m confused. Are you saying that an advanced lifter needs less volume because they would count their warmups as working sets?

Of course you wouldn’t do 20 sets of the same exercise, that example made no sense...
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Read once again slowly, ramp up sets until working sets of 50 kg also considered as volume for an advanced: he would need to do 6-8 sets of 25kg once, then 35 kg dumbbell and then 4-6 of 40 kg, then 4 of 45 and only after that would work with 50s just as an example of ramp up warmup , if he does not take this into account and will start banging 10 sets with 50s after ramp up sets he will be overreaching.. who could have thought even such thoroughly explained example may bring up questions; glad to explain tho.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
I took 1 exercise as an example just to make it simpler, this warmup would be needed on any other exercise as well so this is all same shit if you compare beginners vs advanced workout plans.
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The Dark
Knight
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I follow you now. I’m not sure I necessarily agree, though. Beginners may not use as many sets, but they probably SHOULD, given that they need to learn the movement patterns. Likewise, advanced lifters- the ones that know what they’re doing, anyway- don’t warm-up the way you’ve presented. -3X
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mrjoshua88 private msg quote post Address this user
I get you. Just don’t really agree. I use 1-3 light sets - depending on the exercise - to get the movement pattern firing and acclimatise my joints etc, but they are so submaximal that I would never be inclined to count them into overall volume.

5 working sets is 5 working sets, regardless of how you work up to your first work set. The only difference between a beginner and an advanced lifter in that scenario is the weight used. I don’t think any elite lifters are doing less volume than a beginner.
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Movement pattern is low level approach, to get better results more than this needed, got to make muscle work harder, get inside that muscle and imagine how it works as Arnold said, imagine like curtain opens when training back etc, mind muscle connection is no joke and has been confirmed by studies. Well..guess for someone movement pattern is enough, in this case don't be surprised with average gains, that you can't go beyond..
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The Dark
Knight
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Movement pattern is the MOST important thing to training. You’re a little out of your league at this point, I think. The first 6 weeks of performing an exercise, you don’t even achieve any kind of actual growth because your motor neurons are adapting to the movement. It’s only after an exercise or routine goes beyond the neural adaptation stage that growth begins. -3X
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frame private msg quote post Address this user
Thats what I meant, movement pattern beginners approach
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Jsn3004 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by frame
if a beginner does dumbbell rows he may need only 1 warmup set until he starts his working sets, so his optimal amount of sets per week for back would be 20 sets. More advanced lifter would need 3-4 warmup sets with relatively heavy weight until his working sets of 6-8 reps with 50 kg dumbbell.


Doesn't this just apply to the first lift? If my first lift was barbell rows i'm going to perform warm-up sets, but if my next movement was lat pull-downs, i'm going straight into my working sets. I wouldn't be warming up for every single movement.
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