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Is this a good back/bicep workout for mass?17907

Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
I am aiming for a bold and strong back. This is what I came up with right before biceps:

I am unable to do pullups or chin ups at the moment...


4x12 bent over barbell row [supinated]
4x10-12 cable row
4x10 T Bar row
4x10-12 wide grip lat pulldowns
4x12 one hand dumbbell row

Then biceps:
4x8-10 barbell row standing [small straight bar]
3x10 supinated dumbell curl
3x10 preacher barbell curl

Is this a good workout for back/bicep day to get mass?
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Hamb0 private msg quote post Address this user
That is 30 sets of back/biceps work. Its waaaay excessive. It is pretty much a whole week's volume, in normal programs. Either cut the total volume but 33-50%, or straight up remove 2 back exercises and 1-2 bicep exercises and it looks much better.

With that amount of volume, the quality of the lifts in the last half of the workout will be so compromised because of fatigue, that it won't do much of anything, other than just making you have to recover for longer, before you can train back again.
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamb0
That is 30 sets of back/biceps work. Its waaaay excessive. It is pretty much a whole week's volume, in normal programs. Either cut the total volume but 33-50%, or straight up remove 2 back exercises and 1-2 bicep exercises and it looks much better.

With that amount of volume, the quality of the lifts in the last half of the workout will be so compromised because of fatigue, that it won't do much of anything, other than just making you have to recover for longer, before you can train back again.


Thanks for the feedback.

I work biceps 2x/week and back only once/week [my arms are tiny for my 6 foot frame].

The back is a huge group so what I thought was incorporating this volume should be okay?

How about this:

4x12 bent over barbell row [supinated]
3x10-12 cable row
3x10 T Bar row
3x10-12 wide grip lat pulldowns

4x8-10 barbell row standing [small straight bar]
3x10 supinated dumbell curl
3x10 preacher barbell curl


[my biceps need ALOT of help]
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Read the Routine for Dummies thread. Useful info in there. It's stickied at the top of the main forum page. -3X
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Hamb0 private msg quote post Address this user
Looks better, but i'd still strongly recommend training your back twice a week. Back work also involves to biceps to a pretty high degree, and you load the biceps with more weight in back movements than in the isolation exercises - and thats a good thing.
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamb0
Looks better, but i'd still strongly recommend training your back twice a week. Back work also involves to biceps to a pretty high degree, and you load the biceps with more weight in back movements than in the isolation exercises - and thats a good thing.


Okay. My split is:

Saturday - Back/Biceps/Chest

Tuesday - Chest/Triceps/Biceps

Thursday - Legs/Shoulders

I cannot go to the gym any more days -- where can I fit in the back for the second time?
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Hamb0 private msg quote post Address this user
Generally, when people only have 3 days a week to train, a whole body program, or weekly alternating upper/lower/upper - and next week lower/upper/lower is recommended.

I get a feeling that you have the idea, that for a muscle to grow, you need to beat the shit out of it, one day per week. This has been proven to be inferior to more moderate training, done 2 or more times per week.
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csizemore21 private msg quote post Address this user
Back>biceps if you have small arms your back will grow from rowing all the curling is prob working against you tbh lol
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Hamb0 private msg quote post Address this user
I mean, in the above program biceps is even being trained twice as much as the legs, and in relative muscle mass, your leg muscles are maybe 4-5 timers bigger than your biceps, if not more
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamb0
Generally, when people only have 3 days a week to train, a whole body program, or weekly alternating upper/lower/upper - and next week lower/upper/lower is recommended.

I get a feeling that you have the idea, that for a muscle to grow, you need to beat the shit out of it, one day per week. This has been proven to be inferior to more moderate training, done 2 or more times per week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamb0
Generally, when people only have 3 days a week to train, a whole body program, or weekly alternating upper/lower/upper - and next week lower/upper/lower is recommended.

I get a feeling that you have the idea, that for a muscle to grow, you need to beat the shit out of it, one day per week. This has been proven to be inferior to more moderate training, done 2 or more times per week.


Thanks. I think I need to completely modify my program then.

What should the split for me be? My legs are relatively big compared to my upper body due to track over the years and sports so I don't think I need legs 2x/week because that would make me look even more weird.

So, how can I make a proper split/program. Can you refer me to a proper program with 3 days/week and working each muscle 2/week with more moderate training?

Thanks!
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haole private msg quote post Address this user
@Oslo1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Read the Routine for Dummies thread. Useful info in there. It's stickied at the top of the main forum page. -3X


this ^^^^^

DO NOT MAKE YOUR OWN ROUTINE. You have no idea what you are doing.
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by haole
@Oslo1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Read the Routine for Dummies thread. Useful info in there. It's stickied at the top of the main forum page. -3X


this ^^^^^

DO NOT MAKE YOUR OWN ROUTINE. You have no idea what you are doing.


This is not made up by me [until the last few changes]. I have a trainer at the gym who has made up this routine. Are you telling me not to trust him?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
I would say yes. Don't trust him. What makes his advice better than anyone else's that he should be trusted? -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
I would say yes. Don't trust him. What makes his advice better than anyone else's that he should be trusted? -3X


Well, he has been using this routine for years and he is a powerlifter (now).

Using this routine his bench press for 8 reps is 130kg (3 sets) and his deadlift max is 270kg and his squat max is 230kg.

Using this exact same routine -- what is the problem you see here?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
It's already been pointed out- too much volume. Working back only once a week is also not optimal.

Did it occur to you that the routine this trainer used may have nothing to do with his success as a lifter? Or that he may have gotten better results using a different routine? -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
It's already been pointed out- too much volume. Working back only once a week is also not optimal.

Did it occur to you that the routine this trainer used may have nothing to do with his success as a lifter? Or that he may have gotten better results using a different routine? -3X


Thanks for the input. The trainer did himself train back twice a week, I'm going to start that soon as well, but because I am a beginner, he suggested waiting a while.

Phase 1: I only did squats, deadlifts, bench press and rows, military/dumbell presses and no isolation.

Phase 2: What I described

Main routine:

Saturday - Back/Chest/Biceps

Back --> 4x barbell row, 3x T-bar row, 3x-cable row, 3x- wide lat pulldown, 2x - close grip lat pulldown
Chest --> 5x5 bench press, 3x decline bench press, 3x cable chest press, 3x chest press machine
Biceps --> 4x standing straight barbell curl, 3x bicep curl, 3x drag curl

Tuesday - Back/Chest [supersets] and Triceps/Biceps [super sets]
Chest --> 4x8 bench press, 3x10 decline dumbell press, 4x12 incline dumbbell press, 3x10 flat dumbell fly, 3x10 chest press machine
Back ---> 4x10 barbell row, 3x10 cable row, 3x wide lat pulldown, 3x behind neck lat pulldown

Biceps --> 4x standing straight barbell curl, 3x hammer curl, 3x preacher curl
Triceps --> 4x10 skull crusher barbell, 4x10 dumbell tricep extension, 4x10 rope pulldown

Thursday Legs/Shoulders
Legs --> 4x10 squat [barbell], 4x10 lunges, 4x10 leg press, 4x10 v bench curl, 4x10 calf push-down
Shoulders --> 4x10 dumbell press/military press [alternating], 3x10 lateral raise, 3x10 alternate lateral raise, 4x10 front delt raise, 4x10 rear delt raise, 5x10 dumbell/barbell shrugs [alternating]

The volume the trainer said should be okay as the back/chest is a large muscle and I am only doing 9-11 sets for biceps/triceps.

Request: For modifying this routine, what would you suggest in changing the volume?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Seriously bro- read the Routine Design for Dummies thread. What the "trainer" has laid out above is pretty flawed. -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Seriously bro- read the Routine Design for Dummies thread. What the "trainer" has laid out above is pretty flawed. -3X


Okay. I have read up the routine design 1.0 and I have a few questions I am hoping you can clear up.

(1) Let me take chest. What is the difference in 20 sets for chest vs 12 sets? I know you advocate 12 [and I am leaning there too] but I am just curios. [supposing you train chest 2x/week].

(2) I have watched so many videos on YouTube of fitness people working out, they all seem to do 12-16 sets for small muscle groups -- such as biceps? [example is physique of greatness or Bradley Martyn...]
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Those questions are answered in that thread. How did you miss this:

For larger muscle groups like chest, back, and legs, 10-12 working sets per workout is plenty for growth. I know some people love to do high volume routines. Good for them. The average athlete doesn't need 20-25 sets for chest twice a week. That's nonsense.

Smaller muscle groups can be trained with great results with 6-8 sets twice a week. Hammering your muscles into submission will not make them grow more. Once muscle protein synthesis is peaked, adding more reps or sets isn't going to create more growth. It may increase muscular endurance.

Not sure if you're just determined to ignore the advice I'm giving you or you're trolling at this point. -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Those questions are answered in that thread. How did you miss this:

For larger muscle groups like chest, back, and legs, 10-12 working sets per workout is plenty for growth. I know some people love to do high volume routines. Good for them. The average athlete doesn't need 20-25 sets for chest twice a week. That's nonsense.

Smaller muscle groups can be trained with great results with 6-8 sets twice a week. Hammering your muscles into submission will not make them grow more. Once muscle protein synthesis is peaked, adding more reps or sets isn't going to create more growth. It may increase muscular endurance.

Not sure if you're just determined to ignore the advice I'm giving you or you're trolling at this point. -3X


I want to take your advice, but I just had some questions/curiosity I wanted to get cleared up.

(1) So I can do 12 sets only for chest/back/shoulder/legs?
(2) Biceps/Triceps/Calves are 8 sets per workout and 2x/week?

I am just scared that due to lower intensity my gains will go towards fat rather than muscle.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
All muscle groups are trained twice a week. Intensity doesn't affect fat gain- too many calories or not enough activity do that. -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
All muscle groups are trained twice a week. Intensity doesn't affect fat gain- too many calories or not enough activity do that. -3X


Thanks. I am unable to use that exact workout you have written because I am only able to go to the gym three times a week.

Is there a possible fix for this? Perhaps the split I referred to, but with decreased volume?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
You're just bound and determined to do that routine aren't you?

You can run a 4 day routine across 3 days by simply doing: Upper/Lower/Upper the first week, then Lower/Upper/Lower the second and so on. -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
You're just bound and determined to do that routine aren't you?

You can run a 4 day routine across 3 days by simply doing: Upper/Lower/Upper the first week, then Lower/Upper/Lower the second and so on. -3X


Okay. Just one question.

If I am on creatine, should I still use the recommended volume or increase the volume (due to the extra ATP/energy)?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
You know what? Run whatever you want. Do enough volume to cause rhabdo. Knock yourself out. You're intent on doing so anyway, so go ahead.

Be aware that ATP/energy has nothing to do with the advised volume AT ALL. I directed you to the thread that would help you, then copy and pasted the specific info on volume, and yet you're insistent on doing whatever you want anyway. So go ahead. -3X
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Oslo1234 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
You know what? Run whatever you want. Do enough volume to cause rhabdo. Knock yourself out. You're intent on doing so anyway, so go ahead.

Be aware that ATP/energy has nothing to do with the advised volume AT ALL. I directed you to the thread that would help you, then copy and pasted the specific info on volume, and yet you're insistent on doing whatever you want anyway. So go ahead. -3X


Why are you so angry? All I am doing is asking some questions, is that a crime?

The only reason I even asked about the volume was because I was using creatine and because I was told that you should workout more and harder when on creatine.

I come to this forum for help, and I do 100% absolutely want to take your advice for the split, the volume, frequency, everything -- all I need is some additional help and guidance, thats it.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
You're kidding, right? You were pointed to a thread that lays everything out for you in the simplest way. You somehow skipped the portion of the thread pertinent to volume. I copy and pasted said portion, complete with the phrase, "Once muscle protein synthesis is peaked, adding more reps or sets isn't going to create more growth. It may increase muscular endurance." You then continue asking about increasing the volume. And you wonder how someone could be annoyed at your hard-headedness? How many times and in how many way do you have to be told something to comprehend it?

Regarding creatine and ATP/energy, if you were paying attention, you read that muscle protein synthesis is the rate-limiting factor for growth and what makes added volume unnecessary. Creatine has no effect on MPS.

*Louis M et. al. No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. (2003) 285(5):E1089-94.
*Louis M et. al. Creatine supplementation has no effect on human muscle protein turnover at rest in the postabsorptive or fed states. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. (2003) 284(4):E764-70.

-3X
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SOLARSUPLEX private msg quote post Address this user
Bro don't ask questions if you are going to argue the answers.
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Beans private msg quote post Address this user
Did you ask your trainer any of these questions? I'd like to know his answers, because that routine is all kinds of messed up.
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