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New routine ppl?17371

Coopsdaddy private msg quote post Address this user
Looking for a new intermediate routine,I've been doing 531 for tge last 6 months,it's beating my lower back and hips up,looking to change for awhile.interested in a ppl routine.can workout 4-5 days per week.
I've read the stickies,just want to see what's out there,eknight could you post yours?
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@Coopsdaddy look at the other ppl critique thread going right now, it's listed pretty well in there.
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Pull
DL/? 4x3-6
W pull-up x4
BB/t row 4x8-10
R flys 3x8-10
Shrugs 3x8-10
Ez bar curl 3x8-10
Hammer/seated incline curl 3x8-10

Push
Db bench 4x3-6
Ohp/incline3x3-6
Close grip bench 3x8-10
Flys/crossover 3x8-10
Lat raise 3x8-10
Tri ext 3x8-10
Dips 3x8-10

Legs
F squats 4x8-10
B split squat 3x8-10
Curl 3x8-10
Rom deadlift 3x8-10
Calf raise 3x8-10
Abs x4-6sets

My goals are aesthetics and health,strength will come.
Is routine good for that?
Were the slash marks are is just a option If the station is taken or just for some change.
Should I do sets across or ramp up the weight each set?
What is the best way to progress,just move up when all sets are done to the final number or maybe use the 531 method on compounds and just move up asstence when needed?
Some of this is modified to fit my 40 year old body and underlining issues.
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Few things. A great way to structure workouts is to have your strength movement first, 3 sets of 3-5 reps then follow with a mostly body building protocol.

That said, reps of 3-6 are too low for a dumbbell press. If you can, flat bench or cg bench for your strength, then db bench should be something like 6-10 reps of possibly higher if you wanted.

So for your exercises, I would CG bench first, then follow with ohp, then Dumbbells etc.

Leg day looks fine, maybe put your rdl's before the curls but not a big deal.

Last thing is your push, pull ratio. You only seem to have 2 compound lifts for your upper back, pull-ups and rows. Whereas on push day you have db press, cg press, incline/ohp and dips. I would possibly lose the dips, as cg bench works very similar. And see if you can balance it up any other way.
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The Dark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut
That said, reps of 3-6 are too low for a dumbbell press.



Why? What's the logic here? Your body doesn't know the difference between DBs and a barbell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut
Last thing is your push, pull ratio. You only seem to have 2 compound lifts for your upper back, pull-ups and rows. Whereas on push day you have db press, cg press, incline/ohp and dips. I would possibly lose the dips, as cg bench works very similar. And see if you can balance it up any other way.


Reverse flyes and shrugs are both scapular retraction movements and are adequate to balance the push:pull ratio, although he does need more volume on pull day to achieve an optimal 2:1 pull:push ratio. -3X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut
That said, reps of 3-6 are too low for a dumbbell press.



Why? What's the logic here? Your body doesn't know the difference between DBs and a barbell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut
Last thing is your push, pull ratio. You only seem to have 2 compound lifts for your upper back, pull-ups and rows. Whereas on push day you have db press, cg press, incline/ohp and dips. I would possibly lose the dips, as cg bench works very similar. And see if you can balance it up any other way.


Reverse flyes and shrugs are both scapular retraction movements and are adequate to balance the push:pull ratio, although he does need more volume on pull day to achieve an optimal 2:1 pull:push ratio. -3X


I'd say there's a pretty big different between a barbell press and dumbbell press. Going as low as 3 reps on a DB press is just asking for it. For someone so concerned about knees on a leg ext machine I would have thought you would understand the risks of going so heavy on a unilateral movement. There is just no need to be doing Dumbbells at such a high intensity. Have fun getting getting the Dumbbells Up. Also I wouldn't really call shrugs a scrap retracion movement...

Going for balance, 2 compound exercises vs 4 is not balanced. Not to mention the flys which would increase protraction of the scapular also.. Just me 2 cents.
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Again- what is the logic behind your idea about DBs and rep ranges? "I'd say there's a pretty big difference," doesn't say anything. It repeats your (incorrect) opinion. It's also based on a false presumption that because a person is using a lower rep range, they must inherently be going too heavy to be safe. Didn't take into account that slowing eccentric portion, performing them on an unstable surface, or doing single arm DB presses can make moderately heavy DBs appropriate for a 3-6 rep range. In terms of muscle activity, the body doesn't know a DB from a barbell- the EMG data demonstrates this. Never mind the fact that you say 3-6 reps is bad, but 6-10 is ok. So is 6 good or bad? What if you got 7 reps last time and only get 5 this time because you're fatigued. Is that a wasted set?

If you don't call a shrug a scapular retraction movement, you don't understand the action of the traps. The upper traps (the smaller area of fibers) are scapular elevators, but the fibers of the mid-traps (the larger area) are retractors. If shrugs are done properly, they're not just an "up and down" movement. You're slightly bent at the waist, allowing the shoulder blades to be pulled up and back. They're one of the few pure retraction movements we perform in the gym.

Your statement about compounds vs non-compounds making a difference is not correct. If you're concerned about a push-pull ratio, you're looking at the shoulders, and the shoulders alone, not the elbows. So whether a movement is compound or not is immaterial, because what makes it compound is the fact that it crosses two joints. Further, if you're insistent upon somehow drawing a distinction between "compound" or "non-compound," are you also prepared to make the appropriate distinctions for the triceps- which are shoulder extensors, and should be, from a kinesiology standpoint- be "pullers" and the biceps- which are shoulder flexors, and should be "pushers?" Is that a can of worms you want to involve?

Coaches, trainers, and exercise physiologists like Joe DeFranco, Dave Tate, Eric Cressey, and Bret Contreras have advised band pull-aparts as part of the pulling volume to offset pushing for good reason. -3X
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I could add a db row or seated row?
I have a ant delt issue that has been flaring up on any chest pressing,exspecialy in flat bench,I don't feel it near as bad on incline and hardly at all on ohp,plus I think overhead press is one if my favorite exercises.
I do do face pulls every week for shoulder health.I will look up band pull aparts in you tube as I have never done those.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Again- what is the logic behind your idea about DBs and rep ranges? "I'd say there's a pretty big difference," doesn't say anything. It repeats your (incorrect) opinion. It's also based on a false presumption that because a person is using a lower rep range, they must inherently be going too heavy to be safe. Didn't take into account that slowing eccentric portion, performing them on an unstable surface, or doing single arm DB presses can make moderately heavy DBs appropriate for a 3-6 rep range. In terms of muscle activity, the body doesn't know a DB from a barbell- the EMG data demonstrates this. Never mind the fact that you say 3-6 reps is bad, but 6-10 is ok. So is 6 good or bad? What if you got 7 reps last time and only get 5 this time because you're fatigued. Is that a wasted set?

If you don't call a shrug a scapular retraction movement, you don't understand the action of the traps. The upper traps (the smaller area of fibers) are scapular elevators, but the fibers of the mid-traps (the larger area) are retractors. If shrugs are done properly, they're not just an "up and down" movement. You're slightly bent at the waist, allowing the shoulder blades to be pulled up and back. They're one of the few pure retraction movements we perform in the gym.

Your statement about compounds vs non-compounds making a difference is not correct. If you're concerned about a push-pull ratio, you're looking at the shoulders, and the shoulders alone, not the elbows. So whether a movement is compound or not is immaterial, because what makes it compound is the fact that it crosses two joints. Further, if you're insistent upon somehow drawing a distinction between "compound" or "non-compound," are you also prepared to make the appropriate distinctions for the triceps- which are shoulder extensors, and should be, from a kinesiology standpoint- be "pullers" and the biceps- which are shoulder flexors, and should be "pushers?" Is that a can of worms you want to involve?

Coaches, trainers, and exercise physiologists like Joe DeFranco, Dave Tate, Eric Cressey, and Bret Contreras have advised band pull-aparts as part of the pulling volume to offset pushing for good reason. -3X


Of course your muscles don't know the difference I'm not saying that. 6 reps is fine, I thought you would have figured by now my problem is with doing dumbbell bench press for 3 or 4 reps. Look at it realistically. Why bother using an exercise where you have to slow the eccentric just to make it viable. There's going to be a point where you want to increase weight and doing that to the point where your dumbbell pressing for close to 3 rep maxes is ridiculous. Considering that using different rep ranges shows little difference in hypertrophy, why would you not use a weight that is safer to get up, can include more volume and induce more metabolic stress on the muscle? Keep low rep strength work for bilateral barbell movements. It just makes more sense from a real world perspective. Safer, easier and your not wasting energy just getting the Dumbbells up in the first place.

Agree with the shrugs tho, I was wrong. I actually thought about it after I posted and yes leaning forward 15 degrees or so your definitely getting scap retracion/elevation.

Regarding compound vs non compound, my point was that he had many exercises protracting the shoulder blade, involving the chest which is the primary cause for rounded shoulders, yet not close to a 2:1 ratio of exercises involved with shoulder retraction. If he's doing pull aparts and face pulls which he didn't mention at first that obviously remedies the situation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut

Look at it realistically. Why bother using an exercise where you have to slow the eccentric just to make it viable.


Look at it realistically. The eccentric portion of the lift is where greater strength and hypertrophy gains are made. Slowing the eccentric portion of the lift doesn't make it viable- it makes it optimal. It's just nonsense to slave yourself to a specific rep scheme for certain exercises. All rep schemes should be utilized throughout the workout, irrespective of the movements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut
Regarding compound vs non compound, my point was that he had many exercises protracting the shoulder blade, involving the chest which is the primary cause for rounded shoulders, yet not close to a 2:1 ratio of exercises involved with shoulder retraction. If he's doing pull aparts and face pulls which he didn't mention at first that obviously remedies the situation.


This isn't consistent with your previous statement. You proposed that OP needed equal number of compound and non-compound movements for shoulder health. You specifically stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sathernut

Going for balance, 2 compound exercises vs 4 is not balanced.


In terms of balance, I count 4 pulling movements (W pull-up, BB/t row, R flys, and Shrugs) and 5 pushing (Db bench, Ohp/incline, Close grip bench, Flys/crossover, and Dips). If you add up his volume, though he's actually around 126 pulling reps and 98 pushing (that's near 1.3:1 pull:push), so he really doesn't need to necessarily add or subtract movements, just bump up the volume. For example, band pull-aparts are simple reverse flyes with a band. Increase the reps to a total of 100 as many people do, and he's set. -3X
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I was looking at bands,what size do I need,I figured I would get a few and keep one in my work truck as well.
What's the best method of progression on this plan.
Thanks
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There isn't necessarily progression other than increasing your reps or slowing them down, unless you move to heavier bands. It's not hypertrophy work, though, it's prehab and stability work. -3X
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Sorry,I wanted to know about progression on the lifting portion and than what kind of bands do I need to buy,size and resistance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Look at it realistically. The eccentric portion of the lift is where greater strength and hypertrophy gains are made. Slowing the eccentric portion of the lift doesn't make it viable- it makes it optimal. It's just nonsense to slave yourself to a specific rep scheme for certain exercises. All rep schemes should be utilized throughout the workout, irrespective of the movements.


So you would recommend someone focuses on lower strength reps with Dumbbells and majority of their high rep work with barbells? You see no issue with that? Also eccentrics aren't the holy grail. Total volume is. And brad schoenfield recently talked regarding this saying slower eccentrics are only good to point regarding hypertrophy, whereas the slower they got they became detrimental to strength/hypertrophy gains due to the lower amount of weight able to be used.

Also your still not thinking realistically. This is the real world, where the majority of men are going to want to lift heavier. Those eccentrics are going to get shorter and shorter until he's lifting a true 3rm with Dumbbells. no risk of injury there or wasted energy getting those Dumbbells up every set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
In terms of balance, I count 4 pulling movements (W pull-up, BB/t row, R flys, and Shrugs) and 5 pushing (Db bench, Ohp/incline, Close grip bench, Flys/crossover, and Dips). If you add up his volume, though he's actually around 126 pulling reps and 98 pushing (that's near 1.3:1 pull:push), so he really doesn't need to necessarily add or subtract movements, just bump up the volume. For example, band pull-aparts are simple reverse flyes with a band. Increase the reps to a total of 100 as many people do, and he's set. -3X


I think you are forgetting volume is reps x weight. Just because he's doing more reps, doesn't mean more volume. 2 compound exercises with shrugs and reverse flys light weight vs 4 compounds lifting solid amount of weight and one chest flys which generally lift a lot more than reverse flys.

Obviously this is getting into finer details but just explaining why I think it is a problem having 2 vs 4 compounds (not to mention all the work the anterior delt is getting compared to the rear delt (with the pull a parts and face pulls this is fine now but not in the OP))

Just my opinion. At the end of the day if he keeps this routine up and gets stronger and eats well for years he'll make great progress no matter whose advice he follows.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopsdaddy
Sorry,I wanted to know about progression on the lifting portion and than what kind of bands do I need to buy,size and resistance.


For weights, depends. Keep it really simple and just lift until you hit highest reps for all sets in that rep range then increase weight

Or periodise it so 3-4 weeks.
Week 1: 3-5 reps
Week 2: 5-8 reps
Week 3: 8-12 reps
Week 4: higher rep range or deload or start again

Choose a weight for the rep range and each time you revisit that rep range try and do better than last time. Throw in some drop sets or rest pause sets if you want to burn the muscle out a bit more.
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@sathernut nope didn't say that they were more important or that they were the holy grail. Nor did I say anything about heavy reps for DBs and lighter for barbells; you're just putting words in my mouth to try and fuel your (still incorrect) argument. That said, eccentrics are certainly a means to make a 3 rep set effective. You're stuck on this idea that going as heavy going to lead to injury or that it is impossible to position the weights. There's just as much risk of injury with a barbell because when you reach failure you can't just drop the weight as with DBs, you get pinned. EVERY exercise has some degree of risk. Get a spotter to hand you the weight and watch you and your problem is solved. I've trained with some of the best bench pressers in the world and at some point have gone big weights, low reps on DB presses with all of them and it's never been an issue. If no one has a problem or an injury handling 120-150 pounds in each hand, I'm sure the OP will be fine using a bit less than this.

Your definition of volume is not correct. Volume is sheer number of reps and sets. It's not reps x weight. Weight refers to intensity. Weight x reps (or intensity x volume) is referred to as total work.

"Just because he's doing more reps doesn't mean he's doing more volume."

That's actually EXACTLY what it means. -3X
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@eknight actually, volume is often considered equal to total work. Depends on who you talk to.
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I talked to my exercise physiology textbooks lol. -3X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
I talked to my exercise physiology textbooks lol. -3X

Westside barbell and juggernaut define volume as setsxrepsxweight,just to name a couple sources. Wouldn't call it wrong, just a different view.
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It actually makes more sense, since volume is 3 dimensional.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
@sathernut nope didn't say that they were more important or that they were the holy grail. Nor did I say anything about heavy reps for DBs and lighter for barbells; you're just putting words in my mouth to try and fuel your (still incorrect) argument. That said, eccentrics are certainly a means to make a 3 rep set effective. You're stuck on this idea that going as heavy going to lead to injury or that it is impossible to position the weights. There's just as much risk of injury with a barbell because when you reach failure you can't just drop the weight as with DBs, you get pinned. EVERY exercise has some degree of risk. Get a spotter to hand you the weight and watch you and your problem is solved. I've trained with some of the best bench pressers in the world and at some point have gone big weights, low reps on DB presses with all of them and it's never been an issue. If no one has a problem or an injury handling 120-150 pounds in each hand, I'm sure the OP will be fine using a bit less than this.

Your definition of volume is not correct. Volume is sheer number of reps and sets. It's not reps x weight. Weight refers to intensity. Weight x reps (or intensity x volume) is referred to as total work.

"Just because he's doing more reps doesn't mean he's doing more volume."

That's actually EXACTLY what it means. -3X


As Beans has stated, I have seen many reputable coaches refer to volume as synonymous with workload ie weight x total reps. Many times Ive seen pro's advising to add volume either by weight, reps or sets.

Even so, like I said, your not being realistic. You talk about benching with the best benchers in the world and how they did it so its fine for any average joe. Just because the weight he is using may be lower, doesnt mean his effort and how heavy the load feels for him and his muscles/tendons is.

Also the fact he has now mentioned he has had anterior delt issues, much harder to retract your scapular into a safer position while benching when using heavy 3-5rm dumbbells than it is with a barbell.

How many times do people get pinned under the bar, compared to how many times your getting heavy dumbbells up and down every workout.

Sure if the guy was a world class bencher I wouldnt give a fuck what he does. Just so happens guy is a 40 year old with a sore back and shoulder issues. Not sure if you have coached anyone before but generally when giving recommendations you should take the lifter into the equation instead of a blanket statement "everyone can heavy db press there is no difference betwen this and barbell bench".

At the end of the day, my advice for him would be to switch his db presses to a higher rep range and focus on heavier pressing with close grip bench or even incline (if his shoulder is fine).
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This is the workout im on now with a fee tweeks.
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Nope, never coached anyone.




Oh wait- except these two-







... Among dozens of others. And amazingly, neither Vanessa nor Barry suffered any setbacks or injures training with me. Must be dumb luck! For someone whose limited understanding of kinesiology prevented him from realizing that the traps retract the scapula, who didn't understand that single joint movements have the same effect on a SINGLE joint as compounds, and who apparently believes that German VOLUME training is based on weight, not total reps, I would think you'd be more willing to learn from those with more experience. -3X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopsdaddy


This is the workout im on now with a fee tweeks.


I wouldn't advise that routine. It's very unbalanced. -3X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
Nope, never coached anyone.




Oh wait- except these two-







... Among dozens of others. And amazingly, neither Vanessa nor Barry suffered any setbacks or injures training with me. Must be dumb luck! For someone whose limited understanding of kinesiology prevented him from realizing that the traps retract the scapula, who didn't understand that single joint movements have the same effect on a SINGLE joint as compounds, and who apparently believes that German VOLUME training is based on weight, not total reps, I would think you'd be more willing to learn from those with more experience. -3X


Not American bud so I have no idea who they are. But good for you. Yes German volume training. Because 10x10 is going to be a lot of volume no matter what weight your using. Look at the end of the day some of the best coaches in the world calculate it that way. Some don't.

Do you still not understand that 2 movements mostly affecting the lats with 2 isolation movements with one focused on rear delt and one on the traps, is not balanced vs 5 movements all heavily involving the chest and 4 heavily involving the ant delt.

Also the fact you won't admit someone doing low rep heavy work with Dumbbells that has shoulder issues is probably better off doing his heavy work with a barbell so he has more control.

You clearly have a superiority complex about you. I've admitted where I was wrong multiple times. I love learning yet you keep looking at things from your own view and not realising that my recommendations were for this guy and this guy alone, not your NFL athlete or your world class benchers or your hot chicks that do whatever they do.

Nomsayin?
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And you clearly have to have the last word. I'm sure you'll even respond to this because you just can't help yourself. I don't know what rock you crawled out from under, but if you insist on giving incorrect info, I'll certainly correct it. That's not a superiority complex, it's just a matter of providing accurate information. Only someone who is so insecure about his own knowledge would view it as anything else. Now hurry and get the last word. I'm done here. -3X
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Eknight how would you clean it up,it's a routine I enjoyed,if face pulls and shrugs were added one day and band pull aparts and lat raise the other upper?
Or is it that screwed up.
Thanks for the advise
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All of my info on how to make a routine that is functional and balanced can be found in the "Routine Design for Dummies" sticky. -3X
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
And you clearly have to have the last word. I'm sure you'll even respond to this because you just can't help yourself. I don't know what rock you crawled out from under, but if you insist on giving incorrect info, I'll certainly correct it. That's not a superiority complex, it's just a matter of providing accurate information. Only someone who is so insecure about his own knowledge would view it as anything else. Now hurry and get the last word. I'm done here. -3X


No you just cannot admit when you are wrong. Thanks for addressing the points I brought up. I hope you continue giving bench advice based on elite athletes to novice/intermediate average joes.

Xo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopsdaddy
Eknight how would you clean it up,it's a routine I enjoyed,if face pulls and shrugs were added one day and band pull aparts and lat raise the other upper?
Or is it that screwed up.
Thanks for the advise


At the end of the day, that routine is fine. Add some band pull aparts and face pulls and your good to go.

If you want a completely balanced program, like eknight says read his stickie and go from there. Shouldn't be too hard.

That said, try not to worry yourself too much over this stuff. Get in a decent amount of pulling, pull-ups and rows whatever, some rear delt work ie face pulls and pull aparts or pec deck rear delt flys whatever. It doesn't matter. You will be fine and enjoy gains! Paralysis by analysis, don't fall into that hole trying To find the perfect program.
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