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My Legs/Push/Pull routine. Feedback plz.17037

n1x0n private msg quote post Address this user
Leg Press 4x
Lunges 3x
Leg Extensions 3x (I know eknight don't like these)
Romanian Deadlift 4x
Leg Curls 3x

I know I have more sets for quads but I figured both leg press and lunges both involves hams so I can count them to the ham volume?

DB Press 3x
Incline DB Press 3x
Cable Flyes 2x
Lateral raises 4x
Lying Triceps extensions 3x
Seated Triceps extensions 3x

BB Rows 3x
Lat pulldowns 3x
Cable Rows 3x
Reverse Flyes 4x
BB Curls 3x
Hammercurls 3x

I have a 2:1 Pull/Push ratio as ya'll can see. I will be bulking and resting well while doing this.
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Beans private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
Leg Press 4x
Lunges 3x
Leg Extensions 3x (I know eknight don't like these)
Romanian Deadlift 4x
Leg Curls 3x

I know I have more sets for quads but I figured both leg press and lunges both involves hams so I can count them to the ham volume? Nope

DB Press 3x
Incline DB Press 3x
Cable Flyes 2x
Lateral raises 4x
Lying Triceps extensions 3x
Seated Triceps extensions 3x

BB Rows 3x
Lat pulldowns 3x
Cable Rows 3x
Reverse Flyes 4x
BB Curls 3x
Hammercurls 3x

I have a 2:1 Pull/Push ratio as ya'll can see. I will be bulking and resting well while doing this.


The rest looks fine to me. Mostly comes down to exercise preference.
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n1x0n private msg quote post Address this user
Ok. I guess I can do 3 sets of GHR then.
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Reps? And are you going to run it 3 on, 1 off? If so, you might want to start with a lower volume.
When training 6 days a week it's very easy to get overuse injuries if the volume is to high, especially in the elbows/shoulders since they are heavily involved on both the pull/push workouts.
And with such a program regular deloads or time off is more or less a must for natural lifters.

And no, you can't count knee extension exercises to ham volume, they only act as dynamic stabilizers in these and they won't give you any ham growth.
And since you don't do any form of deadlift i suggest that you run it as a pull/legs/push instead, this will give your elbows and your shoulder girdle 1 day break, which will lower the risk of injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Schoenfeld
A study by Weiss et al provides direct evidence that squats don’t do much for hamstrings muscle growth. Subjects performed four sets of squats to approximately parallel depth using either a low, medium, or high rep range. Training was carried out 3 days a week for 7 weeks. At the end of the study, results showed significant increases in hypertrophy of the quads for all conditions studied. The hammies: no changes from baseline seen in any of the conditions.

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/are-squats-all-you-need-to-maximize-hamstrings-development/


And 6 sets of biceps/triceps is really not necessary in a PPL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauê Vazquez
The aim of this study was compare changes in upper body muscle strength and size in trained men performing resistance training (RT) programs involving multi-joint plus single-joint (MJ+SJ) or only multi-joint (MJ) exercises. Twenty young men with at least 2 years of experience in RT were randomized in 2 groups: MJ+SJ (n = 10; age, 27.7 ± 6.6 years) and MJ (n = 10; age, 29.4 ± 4.6 years). Both groups trained for 8 weeks following a linear periodization model. Measures of elbow flexors and extensors 1-repetition maximum (1RM), flexed arm circumference (FAC), and arm muscle circumference (AMC) were taken pre- and post-training period. Both groups significantly increased 1RM for elbow flexion (4.99% and 6.42% for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), extension (10.60% vs 9.79%, for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), FAC (1.72% vs 1.45%, for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), and AMC (1.33% vs 3.17% for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively). Comparison between groups revealed no significant difference in any variable. In conclusion, 8 weeks of RT involving MJ or MJ+SJ resulted in similar alterations in muscle strength and size in trained participants. Therefore, the addition of SJ exercises to a RT program involving MJ exercises does not seem to promote additional benefits to trained men, suggesting MJ-only RT to be a time-efficient approach.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2015-0109#.VcZsxPntlBc
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n1x0n private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawsteel
Reps? And are you going to run it 3 on, 1 off? If so, you might want to start with a lower volume.
When training 6 days a week it's very easy to get overuse injuries if the volume is to high, especially in the elbows/shoulders since they are heavily involved on both the pull/push workouts.
And with such a program regular deloads or time off is more or less a must for natural lifters.

And no, you can't count knee extension exercises to ham volume, they only act as dynamic stabilizers in these and they won't give you any ham growth.
And since you don't do any form of deadlift i suggest that you run it as a pull/legs/push instead, this will give your elbows and your shoulder girdle 1 day break, which will lower the risk of injury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Schoenfeld
A study by Weiss et al provides direct evidence that squats don’t do much for hamstrings muscle growth. Subjects performed four sets of squats to approximately parallel depth using either a low, medium, or high rep range. Training was carried out 3 days a week for 7 weeks. At the end of the study, results showed significant increases in hypertrophy of the quads for all conditions studied. The hammies: no changes from baseline seen in any of the conditions.

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/are-squats-all-you-need-to-maximize-hamstrings-development/


And 6 sets of biceps/triceps is really not necessary in a PPL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauê Vazquez
The aim of this study was compare changes in upper body muscle strength and size in trained men performing resistance training (RT) programs involving multi-joint plus single-joint (MJ+SJ) or only multi-joint (MJ) exercises. Twenty young men with at least 2 years of experience in RT were randomized in 2 groups: MJ+SJ (n = 10; age, 27.7 ± 6.6 years) and MJ (n = 10; age, 29.4 ± 4.6 years). Both groups trained for 8 weeks following a linear periodization model. Measures of elbow flexors and extensors 1-repetition maximum (1RM), flexed arm circumference (FAC), and arm muscle circumference (AMC) were taken pre- and post-training period. Both groups significantly increased 1RM for elbow flexion (4.99% and 6.42% for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), extension (10.60% vs 9.79%, for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), FAC (1.72% vs 1.45%, for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively), and AMC (1.33% vs 3.17% for MJ and MJ+SJ, respectively). Comparison between groups revealed no significant difference in any variable. In conclusion, 8 weeks of RT involving MJ or MJ+SJ resulted in similar alterations in muscle strength and size in trained participants. Therefore, the addition of SJ exercises to a RT program involving MJ exercises does not seem to promote additional benefits to trained men, suggesting MJ-only RT to be a time-efficient approach.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2015-0109#.VcZsxPntlBc


Hello my fellow Swede! Thank you for your good response. I will try and answer as best as I can to your feedback. I forgot to mention the reps, I will train accordingly to 3 on 1 off and the first "cycle" do it at 6-10 reps and second "cycle" 12-15 reps. Nice reference there to Brad Schoenfeld, I haven't seen it before. I don't have time to read through it right now so for now I'll just take your word for it.

I will take your advice and change it to a pull/legs/push

And last but not least; the volume. I must tell you that I have always been a firm believer of the studies that imply that you don't need that much volume and so on. So for example in all my upper/lower splits I have just put in 3 sets of Curls and 3 sets of extensions. Well I can only say that the body parts that have been trained with less volume has grown less. Coincidence? Maybe. But sometimes you need to try stuff out for yourself and not only trust the men in white coats. I say this with all do respect, I asked for feedback and I got it. But the higher volume especially on arms is something I need to try out at least once in my life. And also, if I remember correctly, the volume is actually lower than the recommended I the "routine making for dummies" or what the thread is called.

Ha de gött!
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
sometimes you need to try stuff out for yourself and not only trust the men in white coats. I say this with all do respect, I asked for feedback and I got it. But the higher volume especially on arms is something I need to try out at least once in my life.


Absolutely, you should definitely try it, but with those rep ranges you better listen to your body :p
And i forgot to ask this in my first comment, where's the ab/calves exercises?
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n1x0n private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawsteel
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
sometimes you need to try stuff out for yourself and not only trust the men in white coats. I say this with all do respect, I asked for feedback and I got it. But the higher volume especially on arms is something I need to try out at least once in my life.


Absolutely, you should definitely try it, but with those rep ranges you better listen to your body :p
And i forgot to ask this in my first comment, where's the ab/calves exercises?


Care to elaborate on the bold part? Something wrong with the reps?

And a question. Would it be better to make it Legs/Push/Rest/Pull/Rest?

How would you make a three way split with every body part being trained twice a week if you could do whatever you wanted (in terms om being injury free)?

Forgot to write abs down. I don't see the point in training calves and abs are on lower body day. 3 sets AB wheel and 3 sets hanging of leg raises.
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n

Care to elaborate on the bold part? Something wrong with the reps?


If you run it 3 on, 1 off and stick to those sets/reps your weekly volume will be almost ridiculously high.
Lets take your quads as an example, your first workout you will be doing 10 sets with 6-10 reps (60-100 reps) and on your second you will be working within 12-15 reps (120-150 reps), this comes down to a weekly volume of 180-250 reps.
For your arms it will be even higher since they get worked hard in your multi-joint exercises.

I personally would never have been able to use such a volume with such a frequency without getting crippled by overuse injuries.
I actually tried running a 3-1-3 last year, but with 70-85 reps per session for my bigger muscles and 50-70 for my smaller ones and it ruined me, it worked fine for 1½ month but under a period of 2 weeks i got two grade 1 strains (ham, trieps long head), Supraspinatus impingement in both my shoulders, right one is worse, plus pain in my elbows/knees.
This forced me to rest an entire month and it took 3 months before i could train my triceps/hams normal again, my shoulders is still not good, haven't been able to do lateral raises or overhead work without pain for 6+ months.
I will be seeing a orthopaedic about this in a couple of weeks (been waiting for 3 months, </3 the swedish healthcare system).
Now, the routine is not enirely to blame for all this, before it i had been going hard for 2+ months without a deload or some time off (stupid, i know), and according to the PT i've been seeing my joints are pretty soft and extremely flexible, which increases the risk of injury

Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
And a question. Would it be better to make it Legs/Push/Rest/Pull/Rest?


I ran my first PPL programs like this for 1½ year, it worked fine but the frequency is on the edge of being to low since each muscle only gets hit 1½ times a week.
But with your volume this would be a better alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
How would you make a three way split with every body part being trained twice a week if you could do whatever you wanted (in terms om being injury free)?


If i was injury free i would have run it like i do now but with a few different exerises and some small changes here and there, like this ->

D1 - Push
D2 - Legs
D3 - Pull B + Abs
D4
D5 - Push
D6 - Legs B
D7
D8 - Pull + Abs
D9 - Push B
D10
D11 - Legs
D12 - Pull + Abs
D13

• 2 Cycles -> 4-6 days rest or deload 3 coming workouts (70% of normal weights) -> repeat

Push
Bench: 3x6-8 + Pause: 1x8 (-20%)/2'
Incline db press (30°): 3x10-12/1.5'
Cable lateral raise (start/stop 30° to 80-85°): 2x12-15 + DB: 2x10-12/1' + 1 dropset
Lying tricepsextension: 2x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral pushdown: 2x10-12/1'

Push B
Bench: 3x5 + Pause: 1x8 (-20%)/2.5'
Cable flyes: 3x10-12/1.5'
DB shoulder press (scapular plane): 3x6-8 superset DB lateral raise: 3x10-12
Lying tricepsextension: 2x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral pushdown: 2x10-12/1'

Note, the reason i would start/stop the lateral raises 30° out from the body is because the first 30° it's mainly the supraspinatus working.
And i wouldn't go to 90° just to be extra safe, having Supraspinatus problems sucks.
_________________________

Legs
Squat: 3x6-8 + Pause: 1x8 (-25%)/2'
Unilateral leg press: 3x10-12/1.5'
Nordic hamstring/romanian deadlift (alternate each workout): 4x6-8/2'
Unilateral hypers/unilateral seated leg curl (same as above): 3x10-12/1.5'
Calf press in seated leg press: 3x6-8/1.5' + 2x12-15/1'

Legs B
Squat: 3x5 + Pause: 1x8 (-25%)/2.5'
Unilateral leg press: 3x10-12/1.5'
Nordic hamstring/romanian deadlift (alternate each workout): 4x5/2.5'
Unilateral hypers/unilateral seated leg curl (same as above): 3x10-12/1.5'
Calf press in seated leg press: 3x6-8/1.5' + 2x12-15/1'

Note, i use a band to assist me in Nordic hamstring during my lighter workouts so i don't need to assist with my hands to get back up, on my B workouts i've managed to gain the ham strength needed to do manage 5 reps in the first 3 sets so far without a band.
I recommend that you read this article, Nordic hamstring is without a doubt one of the better ham exercises there is, if not the best.
And the feeling when one is at the end of the excentric and about to start the concentric is addictive :p
_________________________

Pull
Neutral grip pull-ups (about shoulder width): 3x6-8/2'
Lying dumbbell row: 3x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral hammer strength row: 2x10-12/1.5'
Rear delt cable flyes: 3x10-12/1'
Preacher curl: 2x8-10/1.5'
Alternating hammer curl: 2x10-12/1'

Pull
Neutral grip pull-ups (about shoulder width): 3x5/2.5'
Lying dumbbell row: 3x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral hammer strength row: 2x10-12/1.5'
Rear delt cable flyes: 3x10-12/1'
Preacher curl: 2x8-10/1.5'
Alternating hammer curl: 2x10-12/1'

Abs/optional trap work (after rear delts)
High incline shrugs in smith or hex bar shrugs: 3x12-15/1'
Plank: 3-4x1-2 min/0.5'
Ball crunches: 2x12-15 + 3x8-10/1'

PS, /2.5', /2' etc is rest between sets.
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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
Was wondering rawsteel I like your p/p/l set up do you think it's better like yours to have an A and B one with lower reps and one higher on Bench Squat.

Or to have an A and B for p/p/l and do it lower rep then repeat higher rep?
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPloser

Or to have an A and B for p/p/l and do it lower rep then repeat higher rep?


Do you mean alternating heavy/moderate each workout? If so, it won't make much of a difference.
Also, if you want to keep it simple, do the pause sets as "AMQRAP" sets (as many quality reps as possible) with 20 or 25% less weight than in the main sets.
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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
I was only wondering as PUSH A would be say Bench and B would be OHP and Legs A Squat and B Deadlift so having say doing workout A of p/p/l legs all heavier then B the same then back to A for all higher rep range if you get what I mean.

Just with A and B normally hard to get OHP/Bench in the 3-5 and 6-8 rep range say as Squat/Deadlift getting both in both rep ranges
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPloser
I was only wondering as PUSH A would be say Bench and B would be OHP and Legs A Squat and B Deadlift so having say doing workout A of p/p/l legs all heavier then B the same then back to A for all higher rep range if you get what I mean.

Just with A and B normally hard to get OHP/Bench in the 3-5 and 6-8 rep range say as Squat/Deadlift getting both in both rep ranges


I personally would never start a push workout with a OHP, it trains less muscles than the bench and i'm also convinced that most people are better off doing as little overhead work as possible, especially heavy overhead work.
And i quess you can do heavy deads on the leg B workouts instead of squats.
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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks so say Legs A starts with squats in the 3-5 range and secondly deads in the 6-8 range then vice versa on legs B?

I was only going to use it to start as my shoulders are what I'd consider a weak point, would you just suggest Lateral raises?
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPloser
Thanks so say Legs A starts with squats in the 3-5 range and secondly deads in the 6-8 range then vice versa on legs B?


I personally wouldn't have done regular deads since my goal is hypertrophy, and both rdl's, hypers and knee flexion exercises hits the hams harder and are less taxing for the central nervous system, and erector spinae gets enough in RDL, more if one does unilateral hypers since it will get double the volume that way.
Also, deadlifts hits the upper back hard isometrically, so doing them on D2/D11 can have a bad impact on the pull workout the day after.
But if i were to do regular DL's any time in the split above it would have been on the B workout, and it would probably have looked something like this.

Legs D2/D11
Squat: 3x6-8 + Pause: 1xAMQRAP (-25%)/2'
Romanian deadlift: 3x6-8/2'
Unilateral leg press: 3x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral seated leg curl: 3x10-12/1.5'
Calf press in seated leg press: 3x6-8/1.5' + 2x12-15/1'

Legs B D6
Squat: 3x5 + Pause: 1xAMQRAP (-25%)/2.5'
Deadlift: 3x5/2.5'
Unilateral leg press: 3x8-10/1.5'
Unilateral seated leg curl: 3x10-12/1.5'
Calf press in seated leg press: 3x6-8/1.5' + 2x12-15/1'

Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPloser
I was only going to use it to start as my shoulders are what I'd consider a weak point, would you just suggest Lateral raises?


As said, overhead presses mainly works the anterior shoulders, these get more than enough in your chest exercises, especially incline chest presses.
EMG studies have actually shown pretty much the same activity in the anterior deltoids in incline presses as in vertical presses (ohp).
So yes, i would have focused more on the lateral heads if i were you, as in the program above.
But whatever you do, don't lift with your ego in lateral raises, strict form (chest up, shoulders depressed and "lift with your elbow" ), no momentum and don't go above 90°.
I also recommend that you do them slightly bent over and in the mid-scapular plane (red line in pic) since the scapular or mid-scapular plane is easier on the shoulders.



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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
Brilliant thanks you i think I'll do it pretty much as yours is with the change to the leg workout and maybe switching a few exercises in/out.
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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
Sorry last question I promise, when it says +pause is that meaning all reps are Paused?
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHPloser
Sorry last question I promise, when it says +pause is that meaning all reps are Paused?


Yep, pause ~1 sec in the bottom of the squat/bench, don't rest though, there should be constant tension.
And as i said earlier, if you wan't to keep it simple do a "AMQRAP" set with -25% of the weight you used in the 3x8/5 sets.
If you don't want to take the pause set so close to failure then i suggest that you find a percentage that allows you to hit 8 reps with 2-3 left in the tank.
For me this was -25% in squat when i could squat and -20% in bench, it will most likely be different for you since we all have a different ratio off fast/slow twitch fibers.
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OHPloser private msg quote post Address this user
Brilliant thank you.

I'm not the OP and wouldn't say he wants me to adopt his style of training more me asking about his style of training.
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge
So basically you want the op to adopt your style of training?


No, i simply aswered the question below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n1x0n
How would you make a three way split with every body part being trained twice a week if you could do whatever you wanted (in terms om being injury free)?
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