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Hambo private msg quote post Address this user
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.
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SRorhrbac0808 private msg quote post Address this user
Who the fuck wants to fail?
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csizemore21 private msg quote post Address this user
Rest pause
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eventheodds1 private msg quote post Address this user
@SRorhrbac0808 Woooooooooooo!!!!
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qtdreams92 private msg quote post Address this user
Curls in the squat rack and not putting weights away
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques


What does this even mean?? -3X
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darklight79 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.


You mean intensity extending techniques. Not as useful as you think. So overrated. And it's harder to keep track of progress and total tonnage lifted.
Stick with the basics, if you can't exceed a targeted PB poundage or volume wise, adding in forced reps, negatives, drop sets isn't going to do anything much.
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklight79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.


You mean intensity extending techniques. Not as useful as you think. So overrated. And it's harder to keep track of progress and total tonnage lifted.
Stick with the basics, if you can't exceed a targeted PB poundage or volume wise, adding in forced reps, negatives, drop sets isn't going to do anything much.


@eknight can you weigh in on this for me? I have been reading Chris Acetos Championship Bodybuilding and he talks about the different muscle fibers, and he talks about type 2b (i think?) has the most potential for growth, and the main way to stimulate this is training until failure and then using forced reps for additional stimulation, is this true?
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the1 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklight79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.


You mean intensity extending techniques. Not as useful as you think. So overrated. And it's harder to keep track of progress and total tonnage lifted.
Stick with the basics, if you can't exceed a targeted PB poundage or volume wise, adding in forced reps, negatives, drop sets isn't going to do anything much.


thats the only way ive trained since i started , i mustve wasted my time gaining 80lbs of quality muscle over 10 years lol
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklight79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.


You mean intensity extending techniques. Not as useful as you think. So overrated. And it's harder to keep track of progress and total tonnage lifted.
Stick with the basics, if you can't exceed a targeted PB poundage or volume wise, adding in forced reps, negatives, drop sets isn't going to do anything much.


thats the only way ive trained since i started , i mustve wasted my time gaining 80lbs of quality muscle over 10 years lol


Worked for the Golden Era guys, look at the interviews with Sergio, Platz, Arnold, etc. They all loved training to failure and past. Worked for them, it's gonna (probably) work for others. Well actually can't speak for non-enhanced but it'll work for us lol.
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darklight79 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklight79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambo
Hi,

Can you name as many past (beyond) failure techniques you know.

Thanks,
Hambo.


You mean intensity extending techniques. Not as useful as you think. So overrated. And it's harder to keep track of progress and total tonnage lifted.
Stick with the basics, if you can't exceed a targeted PB poundage or volume wise, adding in forced reps, negatives, drop sets isn't going to do anything much.


thats the only way ive trained since i started , i mustve wasted my time gaining 80lbs of quality muscle over 10 years lol


You a freak brah! A FREAK!!! But in all honesty @the1, I didn't mean to offend you.
Maybe I should edit for people who like a systematic way of training; eg. tracking overall tonnage, volume, poundage, etc
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nine0seven private msg quote post Address this user
I'm gonna get a lot of heat for this but I go by experience rather than science. Sure, science is a good way to get started and I always keep it in mind, but results don't lie.
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by nine0seven
I'm gonna get a lot of heat for this but I go by experience rather than science. Sure, science is a good way to get started and I always keep it in mind, but results don't lie.


in my lifestyle this is how I largely base my decisions, personal experience trumps science because there are not studies that can be mimicked ethically in the scientific community. I say somewhere about 75/25 experience:science is how I go about it.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
I've said this before, but just because something is effective, doesn't mean it's optimal. As @darklight79 mentioned, these things are overrated because they aren't the rate limiting factor in growth; muscle protein synthesis is. Once you have adequately stimulated MPS, creating further inflammation and tissue damage isn't going to increase MPS. Once it's capped, it's capped. In fact, as far as I know, simply going to absolute failure- never mind beyond it- increases levels of the nucleotide adenosine monophosphate (AMP). Elevated AMP is a actually a sign that protein synthesis is decreasing.

@Bucky Chris is right that in order to hit your deeper type IIb fibers, you need to exhaust your other fibers a bit, but you don't need to be anywhere near failure to do so. -3X
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight maybe you won't know just because it's not your area of study, but if you're using synthetic hormones that increase protein synthesis, wouldn't this change how you could go about that? as in you could go further than failure like forced or assisted reps because the hormones wouldn't let protein synthesis decrease?

I guess it's the way he talks about how to stimulate them, he says talks about they don't kick in until you're at that point of failure. this is the specific paragraph im referring to:

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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
To address the first portion of your post, yes it's a different ball game for geared athletes, although going to and beyond failure regularly then creates a new issue in terms of CNS fatigue.

Re. the second part- the article page you attached- the literature doesn't back up his position. Trials have been run with experienced athletes in which one group went to failure and another group did not. At the end of the trial (usually 10-12 weeks, long enough to see some sort of measureable growth) neither group had better hypertrophy gains. Anecdotal evidence also does not support his claim. If during the first 6-12 reps your type IIa fibers are dominant, and the type IIb's aren't hit until those others are fatigued, how would one account for the massive growth of powerlifters and strongmen who predominantly train in the 3-5 rep range? -3X
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the1 private msg quote post Address this user
@darklight- didnt mean to come off as a dick :P
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
First part: Do you look at John meadows style of training at all? He utilizes the various techniques of drop sets, half reps, to failure, etc BUT he only uses it maybe once or twice a workout. This is more in the ballpark of what I'm talking about. As you said, consistent use of this in every set would mess with the CNS, but you don't see any benefit to using it briefly?

second part: hmm very interesting.. do you think that changes at all with the introduction of hormones though? I guess what I'm getting at is why did this type of training work so well for the 70s era guys? look at Tom Platz leg training days, always to failure and then beyond. why did this stimulate so much growth? or guys like Sergio? or does this go beyond just the IIb fibers?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Personally, no, I don't see *enough* benefit to it to make it worth while. With the addition of exogenous hormones, it could make a 1% difference. Maybe more. Maybe a lot more, but I sort of doubt it, although now we're way outside my realm of knowledge. For naturals, I just don't see the benefit other than increasing muscular endurance, which, of course, it does do.

As it applies to the guys from the 70s, I have a suspicion that the techniques worked for them for a couple of reasons. Throw out the fact that they were taking anabolics, because all of their competition was too. But using Platz as an example, no one then using those techniques, or since then, using every technique imagineable and better drugs has been able to touch his leg development. I'd say that indicates more about individual genetics than training methodology. -3X
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SOLARSUPLEX private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight @Bucky Good read guys. Thanks for the info!
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight interesting, well even if it does only give a small advantage, honestly I love the pump that comes from drop sets, pause reps, etc so I'll continue with them.

Platz definitely had the elite genetics though absolutely, and his work ethic for his legs was amazing.

Curious as to how you feel about peri-workout nutrition? For example, my peri-workout drink is 50g highly branches cyclic dextrin, 20g EAAs, and 10g glutamine. The difference for me personally has been night and day when it comes to energy all the way through the workout, especially while being in a deficit.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
What is peri-workout? Is this the same as intraworkout? If you eat beforehand, it's really not needed. If you're getting more energy DURING your workout, it's not from something you're taking while you're training. Strong placebo, but if it works, I guess stay with it. -3X
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TimmothyGen private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight wait so when I see these youtubers eating like candy during their workouts they say it gives them a boost...strong placebo right
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Beans private msg quote post Address this user
@TimmothyGen I get pumps and more vascular from eating sugar, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's why they do it.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
@TimmothyGen yes. Do you really believe that when you eat something with sugar in it, it instantaneously gives you energy? Despite the fact that it has to clear the stomach to start being absorbed in the intestines- which takes HOURS? God I wish people would stop getting their info from "pros" who aren't qualified to discuss physiology.

It's like the myth that sugar makes children hyper. It's nonsense that's been debunked for ages, but people insist on it. -3X
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Fayzeh private msg quote post Address this user
Layne Norton suggests shake with dextrose during workout. Jim Stoppani recommends high glycemic carbs (dextrose) rite after to replenish muscle glycogen fast.
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Bucky private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by eknight
What is peri-workout? Is this the same as intraworkout? If you eat beforehand, it's really not needed. If you're getting more energy DURING your workout, it's not from something you're taking while you're training. Strong placebo, but if it works, I guess stay with it. -3X


yeah I mean intra-workout, they use "peri-workout" a lot on my other forum. idk I feel like it helps a ton, especially since usually halfway through my workout I start getting that empty stomach feeling and hungry.

would an insulin spike be caused by eating/drinking simple carbs like that happen? and would that help give the energy boost they talk about?
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TimmothyGen private msg quote post Address this user
@eknight no I never believed that and never tried. I always saw it and whenever I made a comment about it I would get swarmed with "hater".
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayzeh
Layne Norton suggests shake with dextrose during workout.


Interesting, given this:




@Bucky- well it would certainly help the emptiness in your stomach, but the carb energy just doesn't get to you that quickly. -3X
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Fayzeh private msg quote post Address this user
"I suggest one consume 35% of their total daily carbohydrates in a meal 1.5 to 2 hours before their workout as this will allow the carbohydrates adequate time to be digested and enter the bloodstream. I also suggest consuming a shake composed of 30-40g of whey protein along with dextrose or maltodextrin during their workout." -http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html

Layne Norton says that people accuse him of contradicting himself. He just changes his recommendations when new scientific data comes along.
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