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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
Hi all, i've been running an upper/lower/phat type routine for the past 6 months.. I like it, but I'm looking to switch it up. The upper body day really seems to be a lot for too work out all those muscles in one day.

My weight is 17.. bench 280x5
squat 320x5 (best was 325x8)

My diet is on point.. I've been lifting consisently for 5 years now. I want to train 5 days a week. I was thinking of doing a 3 way rotating split the problem is I don't want the days of the week to change every week. Like, one day I don't want legs to be on a monday, and the next week legs on a friday. (its hard enough to do heavy squats- I'd like to have a desingated day atleast for legs)

any ideas?
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
I recommend the p/p/l i've been running for the last ~6 months (have been lifting for 5½ years).
The only problem is that the days change, something you don't want.
But i'll post it anyway, maybe you'll change your mind :P

B -> A -> A -> B -> A -> A -> 3-5 days rest or 3 x A deload workouts -> repeat

D1 - Push A
D2 - Legs B
D3
D4 - Pull A
D5 - Push B
D6
D7 - Legs A
D8 - Pull B
D9

D1 - Push A
D2 - Legs A
D3
D4 - Pull A
D5 - Push A
D6
D7 - Legs B
D8 - Pull A
D9

D1 - Push B
D2 - Legs A
D3
D4 - Pull B
D5 - Push A
D6
D7 - Legs A
D8 - Pull A
D9

Progression method
In the main exercises (squat, bench, rdl and pull-ups) i increase the weight when i can manage 6/9 reps in the last set.
And unlike normal straight set progression where you keep the new weight in all of the sets i prefer to add 2.5 kg in the first set and keep the old weight in the 2 remaining sets.
When i again can manage 6/9 reps in the last set i add those 2.5 kg to the 2 last sets.
The reason im doing it this way is because i want to keep the volume up.
If i would add 2.5 kg to all 3 sets i would only manage around 3/6 reps in the last set.
In the accessory exercises i either do it as above or normal straight set progression.
The single sets (1x13-15, 1x10-12) are taken to 1 rep from failure and sometimes to failure, in these i up the weight when 15/12 can be done.

Rest between sets
/3', /2.5' etc behind the reps is the amount of rest between sets that's being used (in minutes ofc).

Abs
Do them on either the leg or pull workout (or both, not 2 days in a row though).

A
Leg raises/Captain's chair: 4x10/1'
Crunch variant: 2x13-15/1'

B
Leg raises/Captain's chair: 4x8/1.5'
Crunch variant: 2x8-12/1'
________________________________________

Pull A
Pull-ups: 3x8/2.5'
Barbell row: 3x10/1.5'
Hammer strength row/Underhand lat pulldowns (alternate): 2x10 + 1x13-15/1.5'
Rear delt db row: 3x10 + Rear delt flyes: 1x13-15/1.5'
Preachercurl: 3x10/1.5'
Incline hammercurl: 2x10 + 1x13-15/1.5'

Pull B
Pull-ups: 3x5/3'
Barbell row: 3x8/2'
Hammer strength row/Underhand lat pulldowns (alternate): 2x10 + 1x10-12/1.5'
Rear delt db row: 3x8 + Rear delt flyes: 1x10-12/1.5'
Preachercurl: 3x8/2'
Incline hammercurl: 3x10/1.5'

Note, i usually end the workout with bb shrugs, on A workouts 3x10 + 1x13-15/1.5' and on B workouts 3x8 + 1x10-12/1.5'.
And the rear delt db rows have a small twist to them, using a supinated grip with the elbow not as far out as in regular ones.
Jim Cordova demonstreates them at 2:50 here.
________________________________________

Push A
Bench: 3x8/2.5'
Db shoulder press: 3x10 + Incline db press (20°): 1x13-15/1.5'
Cable flyes: 3x10/1.5'
Cable lateral raise: 3x10 + 1x13-15/1.5'
Lying tricepsextension (behind head): 3x10/1.5'
Rope pushdowns: 2x10 + 1x13-15/1.5'

Push B
Bench: 3x5/3'
Db shoulder press: 3x8 + Incline db press (20°): 1x8-10/2'
Db flyes: 3x10/1.5'
Db lateral raise: 3x8 + 1x10-12/1.5'
Lying tricepsextension (behind head): 3x8/2'
Rope pushdowns: 3x10/1.5'

Note, start each workout with some warm up work for the rotatorcuffs, 1-2x15-20 internal and external rotation is enough.
After the workout do 2-3x10-15 working sets.
________________________________________

Legs A
Squat: 3x8/2.5'
Leg press (narrow/low feet position): 3x10/1.5'
Leg extension: 2x13-15/1.5'
Romanian deadlift: 3x8/2'
Leg curl: 3x10/1.5' + 1x13-15
Standing calf raises: 3x10 + 2x15-20/1'

Legs B
Squat: 3x5/3'
Leg press (narrow/low feet position): 3x8/1.5'
Leg extension: 2x10-12/1.5'
Romanian deadlift: 3x5/2.5
Leg curl: 3x10 + 1x10-12/1.5'
Standing calf raises: 3x6/ + 2x10-15 /1'
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks for the suggestion- but yes I don't mind if some of the days change- but i'd hate for leg day to change. I can't imagine heavy squatting on a friday night before I go out :-/

I also don't love 'push' because if you do chest or shoulders first then the other gets compromised. I'd do Chest & Arms / Legs / Back & Shoulders /
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969

I also don't love 'push' because if you do chest or shoulders first then the other gets compromised. I'd do Chest & Arms / Legs / Back & Shoulders /


They don't get compromised, you're weaker in your anterior delts after chest presses because they get trained in them, especially in inclines.
Just as you would be weaker in a military press if you did db shoulder press before it.
Get stronger in the bench and your shoulders and triceps will get stronger and bigger as well.
Separating the shoulders from chest in the split above would be a terrible idea, the anterior delts would get hit 4 times each cycle and on D4/D5 get trained 2 days in a row.
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
My bench and triceps are very strong and big. But, if i'm benching and doing chest work and then shoulder work my shoulder press will be limited yes, your saying that doesn't really matter?
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Why would it matter?? -3X
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
My bench and triceps are very strong and big. But, if i'm benching and doing chest work and then shoulder work my shoulder press will be limited yes, your saying that doesn't really matter?


No, it doesn't matter.
That's one of the good things with p/p/l, the smaller muscle groups don't much direct work since they already get alot in the compound exercises performed for the bigger muscle groups.
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
WHy it matters- I'd think is:

A stronger OHP (in moderate rep range) could lead to more anterior/delt development.

If one does bench first and then say incline or whatever chest pressing and then moves to a shoulder press then that shoulder press is going to be limited in terms of poundages.

Now, you might say as you did that its okay because anterior delts are getting hit already from bench and now your just hitting them again. BUT, i think the problem is that triceps could be the limiting factor. As in, after you heavy bench you use a lot of triceps. Now, you go on to overhead press and its not that your shoulders are limiting the movement, its the triceps.. So, the shoulders could still get hit harder and with more weight, but because the triceps are limiting that then it becomes a problem for delt growth..
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
WHy it matters- I'd think is:

A stronger OHP (in moderate rep range) could lead to more anterior/delt development.

If one does bench first and then say incline or whatever chest pressing and then moves to a shoulder press then that shoulder press is going to be limited in terms of poundages.

Now, you might say as you did that its okay because anterior delts are getting hit already from bench and now your just hitting them again. BUT, i think the problem is that triceps could be the limiting factor. As in, after you heavy bench you use a lot of triceps. Now, you go on to overhead press and its not that your shoulders are limiting the movement, its the triceps.. So, the shoulders could still get hit harder and with more weight, but because the triceps are limiting that then it becomes a problem for delt growth..


It does not affect your anterior delts growth, your muscles don't know what weight you're using, only how much you fatigue them.
For hypertrophy progressive overload is the key.
I personally have experienced better gains and less problems with my shoulders since i started doing them with chest.
The only "downside" when doing less vertical pressing is that you need to do more isolation work for the lateral delts.

PS, you should read this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
I don't mean to argue and I'm not saying anything your saying is wrong, but those 2 sentences seem to be contradictory.

"For hypertrophy progressive overload is the key." If that is true then one must essentially add weight to the bar. If your not adding weight to the shoulder press because your triceps are limiting you from the prior movement (say bench or incline) then you are not going to be adding weight, thus there will be no progressive overload.
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Beans private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
I don't mean to argue and I'm not saying anything your saying is wrong, but those 2 sentences seem to be contradictory.

"For hypertrophy progressive overload is the key." If that is true then one must essentially add weight to the bar. If your not adding weight to the shoulder press because your triceps are limiting you from the prior movement (say bench or incline) then you are not going to be adding weight, thus there will be no progressive overload.


Just going to jump in here. Overload doesn't necessarily mean you add weight every time. It could be as small as adding one rep to an entire exercise. If all you can add is one rep because you triceps are tired, then just do that. If you have to start with a light weight to perform a full set, then do that. It's more important to overload than start with more weight than you can move.
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The Dark
Knight
eknight private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
WHy it matters- I'd think is:

A stronger OHP (in moderate rep range) could lead to more anterior/delt development.

If one does bench first and then say incline or whatever chest pressing and then moves to a shoulder press then that shoulder press is going to be limited in terms of poundages.

Now, you might say as you did that its okay because anterior delts are getting hit already from bench and now your just hitting them again. BUT, i think the problem is that triceps could be the limiting factor. As in, after you heavy bench you use a lot of triceps. Now, you go on to overhead press and its not that your shoulders are limiting the movement, its the triceps.. So, the shoulders could still get hit harder and with more weight, but because the triceps are limiting that then it becomes a problem for delt growth..

This isn't correct. The "But" in your post is spot on- your anterior delts are not only getting MORE work, but they're experiencing the same progressive overload that your pecs and tris are when you increase poundage on your bench. PPL routines have been used by people for decades and gotten great results. Ditto routines like Westside Barbell. If you're that concerned with fatigued triceps limiting your delt growth, do shoulder extension flexion that don't involve the triceps, like front raises. -3X
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Trev182 private msg quote post Address this user
Asks question, argues with answer.

Genius.
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Beans private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev182
Asks question, argues with answer.

Genius.


If you don't understand an answer, you shouldn't believe everything someone says without asking why it's correct.
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
^ well said, thank you.
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
and thanks EK, and everyone else, so would it be better if i ran a PPL and just did a roating schedule, but maybe kept the same leg day on the same day?
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Rawsteel private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
I don't mean to argue and I'm not saying anything your saying is wrong, but those 2 sentences seem to be contradictory.

"For hypertrophy progressive overload is the key." If that is true then one must essentially add weight to the bar. If your not adding weight to the shoulder press because your triceps are limiting you from the prior movement (say bench or incline) then you are not going to be adding weight, thus there will be no progressive overload.


Eknight already answered this and as someone else said, progressive overload can be achieved in many ways (reps, rest time, added volume etc).
And i, as you, like to handle a little more weight in my shoulder press, that's why i have placed it as my second exercise instead of going chest -> delts -> triceps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymguy6969
and thanks EK, and everyone else, so would it be better if i ran a PPL and just did a roating schedule, but maybe kept the same leg day on the same day?


If you run it in a 2-1-2 the leg day will be on a friday 2 times under 63 days, when that happens you could just take a day off.
Doing a p/p/l with set days will decrease the frequency.
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gymguy6969 private msg quote post Address this user
Eknight already answered this and as someone else said, progressive overload can be achieved in many ways (reps, rest time, added volume etc).
And i, as you, like to handle a little more weight in my shoulder press, that's why i have placed it as my second exercise instead of going chest -> delts -> triceps.

I understand what progressive overload is. Adding weight was just 1 example I used. No matter whether it be adding weight, reps, or reducing time it will still be difficult after benching. But I understand what EK is syaing
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