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5/3/1 and variations13094

Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
Hi all, just looking for an opinion or two about 5/3/1. I know its somewhat blasphemous to mess with 5/3/1, but I saw a variation of it a while back here:

http://www.t-nation.com/training/8-6-3-for-size-and-strength

I tried two 4 week cycles of 5/3/1, which I really enjoyed and am currently on week 2 of 8/6/3 as to see which I prefer to do, so that I can stick with it throughout the year. But I'm starting to wonder if there is actually much benefit of 8/6/3 compared to Wendlers original program (in terms of mass as well as strength gains). Anyone had much practice with 5/3/1 or variations there of, or able to offer any insight? Thanks in advance.
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teewhat private msg quote post Address this user
cant say ive ever heard of 8/6/3 tbh. but ive ran 5/3/1 before and loved it. Currently running a PHD-4, combo of 5/3/1 and P.H.A.T.
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
I remember reading about it. Never tried it. I'd say that to work on max strength it's best to work closer to a 1RM rep range. So I'd stick with 5/3/1 since it's pretty proven. And if you want to make a few changes in the year but pretty much stay with the basic 5/3/1 then you can do that. That's the cool thing about it. With an 8/6/3 it would really jack up your %'s for your lifts. Atleast with the advanced methods.
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Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
With an 8/6/3 it would really jack up your %'s for your lifts. Atleast with the advanced methods.


Jack up as in mess up orrrr make them better?

the percentages are more or less the same, just 5% less than what 5/3/1 prescribes.

I'm thinking going back to 5/3/1, but ideally I'd like to put on more mass this year so still somewhat a bit conflicted.
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mikew private msg quote post Address this user
The only change I make to the routine (he suggests it in one of the books, I think) is that I run it as 3/5/1. The advantage is that the "5" week and the deload week offset the two heaviest weeks. Works well for me.

If I was working with a coach or serious training partner every workout I'd consider a variation like 8/6/3 but the Max Effort set on 5/3/1 is taxing enough. As it is now, I'm usually hitting numbers like 8, 6, and 3 on that last set so I wouldn't mess with it.
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SOLARSUPLEX private msg quote post Address this user
Im going to be starting 5/3/1 and im trying to decide how to plan out my assistance work at the moment. I agree with @kickinchicken in the fact that to train for your 1RM you should train near it. Only makes sense. But then to make all of me grow with only 4 main lifts and a couple assistance lifts. Thats where i need to add a bit of volume.
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramses
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
With an 8/6/3 it would really jack up your %'s for your lifts. Atleast with the advanced methods.


Jack up as in mess up orrrr make them better?

the percentages are more or less the same, just 5% less than what 5/3/1 prescribes.

I'm thinking going back to 5/3/1, but ideally I'd like to put on more mass this year so still somewhat a bit conflicted.


You're right. But for the 3 working sets. I was wondering how that would change say Joker sets or First Set Last and the other additions. I looked back at the %'s and it actually wouldn't be that much of a change.

You have me interested Mr Ramses. You should do it just because I want to know how it works out for you lol.

Although I'd still like to train closer to my 1RM. I'd be IN for that LOG.
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Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramses
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
With an 8/6/3 it would really jack up your %'s for your lifts. Atleast with the advanced methods.


Jack up as in mess up orrrr make them better?

the percentages are more or less the same, just 5% less than what 5/3/1 prescribes.

I'm thinking going back to 5/3/1, but ideally I'd like to put on more mass this year so still somewhat a bit conflicted.


You're right. But for the 3 working sets. I was wondering how that would change say Joker sets or First Set Last and the other additions. I looked back at the %'s and it actually wouldn't be that much of a change.

You have me interested Mr Ramses. You should do it just because I want to know how it works out for you lol.


Right. I'm still running the last set as a 8 or 6 or 3 (week dependent) or more and so far hitting 2-3 above the prescribed rep range for the week, but I guess I'm not far in enough to figure out how effective it really is.

I think I'll run it for a few 4 week cycles and then re-evaluate. I'll let you know how it gets on
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLARSUPLEX
Im going to be starting 5/3/1 and im trying to decide how to plan out my assistance work at the moment. I agree with @kickinchicken in the fact that to train for your 1RM you should train near it. Only makes sense. But then to make all of me grow with only 4 main lifts and a couple assistance lifts. Thats where i need to add a bit of volume.


I did 4 months of 5/3/1 plus 2 assistance lifts as well as additional hyper trophy work. I was able to put on some muscle and still get stronger on all my lifts just like Wendler suggested.
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
In the Tudor Bomba periodization mythodology book the best strength variation looks to be what I call a zig zag method. Such as 5/1/3 or in this case 8/3/6. Or even adding a 4th coefficient such as 8/3/6/1 then periodically changing to a different order such as 6/1/3/8. Wendler mentions how the 3/5/1 method worked well for some of his clients as well.
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Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
In the Tudor Bomba periodization mythodology book the best strength variation looks to be what I call a zig zag method. Such as 5/1/3 or in this case 8/3/6. Or even adding a 4th coefficient such as 8/3/6/1 then periodically changing to a different order such as 6/1/3/8. Wendler mentions how the 3/5/1 method worked well for some of his clients as well.


Interesting, guess its just like Mike said. Wouldn't sticking to the 5/3/1 scheme help create a sort of over-reaching (not over-training) period that then be offset by the deload though?
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Yes. In my case I don't always take a deload week after each 3 weeks. So yeah, if I did 3/5/1/D it would be 3/5/1/3/5/1/D. Pretty much 5/3/1 anyway.

But if you were to do 6/1/3/8/6/1/3/8/D???? Or even try deloading every 6th week for a change like 6/3/8/1/6/D/3/8/1/6/3/D/8/1/6/3/8/D... You start each week after a deload week on a different strength % and it could really keep the muscles guessing
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FiremanSi private msg quote post Address this user
@Ramses U wanna get stronger pick 531, you wanna gain mass pick a hyper based program like PPL.
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Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
So more or less decided to stick to 5/3/1 this year, and now just trying to decide assistance work. I'm leaning towards big but boring, but on the other hand, I was thinking about dropping the OHP and deadlift and making them a bench / Squat DE day. Any opinions would be much appreciated!
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Don't drop the OHP or DL days. It's not 5/3/1 without em. OHPs help your bench press. And deadlifts, don't leave home without em.

Are you just trying to include dynamic work into it or do you just only want to squat and bench press? Because they all help each other to do together.

If it's more dynamic work you want then I'd check out @FiremanSi routine and see what he thinks.
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cassious private msg quote post Address this user
Ive just finished round 2 of 8/6/3. I enjoy it alot! I was running PHD-4 but got bored so tried 8/6/3 and its going well so far.
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jja0016 private msg quote post Address this user
5/3/1 has no calf work whatsoever though
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
@jja0016 just add it in if you want it. It's a powerlifting based program not a bodybuilding routine. Calves have no problem handling squatting weight.
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassious
Ive just finished round 2 of 8/6/3. I enjoy it alot! I was running PHD-4 but got bored so tried 8/6/3 and its going well so far.

Dude! Do you have a log for it at all? If still like to see how it work for you.
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cassious private msg quote post Address this user
I'm really bad when it comes to logs! I get to a point where I just cant be bothered listing my workouts haha. I start my next cycle this week though so maybe I will make a log.

One thing that's hard to deal with is the less frequency, I feel like if im not working a muscle twice a week I wont gain, I know its not true its just a mental thing.
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kickinchicken private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, it's something I had to work past through too. Sometimes with my schedule I don't have a choice though so it's not so bad anymore. And other days I focus on recovery and tell myself that's my workout for the day. I feel like a recovering alcoholic sometimes. haha
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cassious private msg quote post Address this user
Will it affect me going from PHD-4 like I was to half the frequency?

Ive been doing the 8/6/3 in a LPP format. I don't do OH pressing because I have a dodgy shoulder and have heard its not good for the shoulders. And at the moment im doing sumo squats and Sumo deadlifts and I feel like my quads aren't getting hit enough, Should I just slap some leg press on my leg day?

I was kind of experimenting with this but this cycle im planning on changing it, I was doing 8/6/3 on BB rows haha. Then remembered the "train your back like a body builder and chest like a power lifter" thing.
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FiremanSi private msg quote post Address this user
Lunges, bulgarian split squats, single leg squats or split squats for quads...
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Ramses private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinchicken
Don't drop the OHP or DL days. It's not 5/3/1 without em. OHPs help your bench press. And deadlifts, don't leave home without em.

Are you just trying to include dynamic work into it or do you just only want to squat and bench press? Because they all help each other to do together.


I actually found when I dropped deads from my programme and focused on squats for a few months, my deadlift went up more so then when I had been training for it (using EK's modified WSBB). So I was thinking similar logic for the OHP but I havent tried that line of thought just yet, so I could well be completely wrong.

I'd like to include dynamic work but I'm not overly stressed about it.
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rememberthis private msg quote post Address this user
Strength days I use to follow 5-3-1... but I got bored.

Now I do 6-8 reps. 3-5 reps. 1 rep max. And deload.

I follow the meso cycle but with more reps. I like to feel some pain when I get home -- it's mostly psychological, but I'm on a cut so I feel right haha
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